Monday, August 29, 2011

LifeVantage/Protandim Is a Scam

Over the past year a friend of a close friend of mine who has now himself become a casual friend of mine has been trying to get me to get involved in his MLM (multi-level marketing) endeavor buying and better yet for him, selling a relatively new (about 10 years old) herbal remedy marketed by LifeVantage as Protandim.

I don't wish to get into explaining much about Protandim as that would be freely promoting the product on this blog and I have no desire to do that. However, I don't want you to merely take my word for anything but do your own research so I provide links both from the company and the skeptics for you to do your own research. Please check ALL links as none are repeated so even the two Protandim links above are not the same but one is the Wikipedia link and one is the product link.

Please consult the links above to get some background information and then check out  these rather fascinating and insightful, not to mention damning sources below:

http://www.budgetsaresexy.com/

2011/03/are-protandim-pills-a-
scam/

http://www.lazymanandmoney.

com/lifevantage-protandim-
scam/

http://www.protandimscams.com/

protandim-inventor-paul-
myhill-has-no-medical-background/

http://www.

sciencebasedmedicine.org/
index.php/protandim-another-kind-of-antioxidant/

http://quackfiles.blogspot.

com/2005/07/protandim-claims-
debunked.html

For starters is is worth noting that the very first scene one sees on one of the Protandim propaganda promotional videos I watched is the following statement: "While independent studies continue to validate the effectiveness of Protandim, this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease." This is a HUGE red flag and rather ironic because then the very same propaganda promotional video proceeds to spend the next ten minutes doing just what it says it does not intend to do.

Dr. Joe McCord did not invent this product as the propaganda promotional videos I watched state (or rather embarrassingly, as one of the company hacks promoters dogmatically asserts) which is a blatant lie and a smoke screen for the simple fact somebody else with much less credibility than Dr. McCord did so, to wit, Paul Myhill, a theologian... amongst other things. I'm sure he's really interesting to talk to about God and orphans but I don't trust an herbal remedy developed by the guy.

However, Dr.McCord is a part owner of the company and yet there are no notices in any of the product propaganda promotional videos stating he has a financial interest in this company as ethically ought to be the case. ALL the other people in the propaganda promotional videos are drug mules "independent distributors" or even officers in the company. That is like listening to a promotional pitch from a cocaine trafficker to get an accurate sense if cocaine is worthwhile.

Not only is Dr. McCord part-owner of the company but he is involved with distributor training. This strikes me as odd that a research scientist is spending time training salespeople. I smell a stinky rat!

Not only are all the people interviewed in the propaganda promotional videos company people but they are talking more the money side of selling the product than the health aspects which is a huge red flag. Indeed there are many red flags in all the promotional materials for Protandim not the least of which is the over-the-top hype and even some maudlin over-sentimentality in some of the interviews on the propaganda promotional videos.

If one has a real-deal product one can afford to be smug and not have to frantically over-hype and over-reach to convince others the product is good as LifeVantage does. Think Apple products like the iPod and iPhone for which there are no Apple barkers selling them in "network" marketing fashion.

Why does LifeVantange refer to their marketing plan as "network" marketing and not just call a spade a spade and admit to the obvious fact it is a MLM?

The online defenders of Protandim claim all skeptics are hacks for Big Pharma and its proxy the FDA. That is a straw man argument and diversionary in the extreme. Most of the critics are actually finance experts who can smell a financial rat, er racket,  when well, they smell one. On the other hand a typical LifeVantage/Protandim hack is somebody like J.J. Bernsdorff who in his blog not only defends the product while toothlessly attacking its detractors but also promotes the damned product in ads on the same page. This classifies as a mother-of-all-conflicts-of-interest in my book.

Of course the AMA doctors are against Protandim even if they are pushers of legal drugs. The drugs they use and prescribe have to pass muster with the FDA and usually do work while the herbal products have not been thus proven and do not have to prove ANYTHING. At least the FDA-approved stuff has gone through one more layer and level of scientific scrutiny and inquiry than the herbal remedy stuff like Protandim which needs not prove anything.

Of course I have yet to even touch on the scammy nature of MLM's in general here (of which LifeVantage is one) but won't get into here in any depth but welcome you to do your own research on it via the links I have provided as well as other sources you find. 

I have reached the obvious conclusion that Protandim as currently marketed is a scam (even if it actually works as preventative medicine) and consequently I have decided to not get involved with this product and the ethically-challenged company that markets it.

Update: It has been suggested to me that Protandim is essentially glutathione but with a lot of smoke and mirrors and one heck of a dog and pony show - and with a lot of additional cost. I cannot confirm this but I encourage our more biochemistry-backgrounded readers to offer some insights in the comments below.

LisaRob updates taken from her comments to this article in mid-April, 2016:

A few things have happened that I'm not sure have been covered here. I briefly scanned through the comments, but didn't see them, so here goes.

1. McCord retired from the company a few years ago and collected a hefty paycheck after signing a nondisclosure agreement.

2. Lifevantage has been through several other Chief Science Officers since then (one only lasted a few months). Another, Shaun Talbott, had a very sketchy history and judgement against him for making false claims about another product before being hired by LV. Talbott didn't last very long and was unceremoniously kicked out after he had a disagreement with the higher ups.

3. Lifevantage sued Lazyman and he had to remove his blog because he couldn't afford to fight the lawsuit in the long run. (Your link to his site will only bring up his statement about that lawsuit, and none of the great information that used to be there). I believe the Budgets are Sexy site has also removed its Protandim discussion.

4. Paul Myhill (the "inventor" of Protandim) admitted on his Facebook page that he no longer takes Protandim and has moved on to other things. He ended up taking the statement down, but I have a screenshot of it. I heard LV was going to sue him, or perhaps they still are. Not sure either way.

5. There is growing evidence that flooding your body with antioxidants is bad for people who have cancer. This is concerning because you have to wonder how long a person has cancer before it is actually detected. Maybe it's not such a great idea for anyone to be boosting their antioxidant levels.

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/evidence-antioxidants-fuel-cancer#5

Here is the press release for the new product:

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2016/02/19/812478/0/en/LifeVantage-Announces-Intent-to-Launch-Protandim-Nrf1-Synergizer-Product.html

McCord's retirement package. He was an "at will" employee, so one can only guess why they felt it reasonable or necessary to gift him with 1.7 million dollars:

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/849146/000144530513001529/form8-k502e.htm

"The Agreement contains provisions relating to, among other things, confidentiality, non-disparagement, return of company property, and a general release of claims in favor of our company. The Agreement requires that we make twelve (12) equal monthly payments to Dr. McCord in the aggregate amount of $1,700,000. Dr. McCord has agreed to consult with us on matters relating to his previous work for our company for a period of nine (9) months after the effective date of the Agreement."

 

Regarding Shawn Talbott and the judgement against him for making illegal claims about CortiSlim before LifeVantage hired him :

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2005/09/three-cortislim-defendants-give-45-million-cash-and-other-assets


Here is a link where Talbott discusses being unceremoniously dumped from LV. It was rumored that Talbott wanted to move the company away from the MLM format, but I have no proof of that:

https://bestfutureyou.com/2015/07/13/my-new-gig/

LV now has a Sr. VP of Research and Development (not sure why the there isn't a Chief Science Officer) named Nathalie Chevreau, PhD. She has run afoul or the FTC in the past, also:

https://youarenotafitperson.com/2009/10/27/jillian-michaels-doctors-dr-nathalie-chevreau-ph-d/

 

One thing I forgot to mention was the stock price of LifeVantage. In the past, LV has taken great pride in being traded on NASDAQ, and has even used it as a marketing tool. Last year, their stock had fallen below $1.00 a share for 6 months and was in imminent danger of being delisted. To avoid that, they did a 7:1 reverse stock split to bring the price per share up to avoid delisting.

243 comments:

  1. This is lies. Dr, McCord did invent the product and it has worked wonders for my family. I was skeptical at first but then I saw the results.

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    1. It’s about time that people know about the company so they can disregard the so called Herbalife scam. Every single network marketer that joins a particular marketing program has one of the following issues: not enough money to continue advertising various products, not enough cash, not enough leads, and so forth. Herbalife is different.

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  2. Actually, it is the marketers of this product who are doing the lying while I am merely noting the facts so that other people can come to their own conclusions. It is an indisputable fact that can be verified and corroborated that Paul Myhill developed this product under a different product name marketed under a different company name. He realized he could not be as convincing as Dr. McCord who did CO-DISCOVER the enzyme superoxide dismutase along with Irwin Fridovich. In fact they both were awarded the Elliot Cresson Medal for their work although Fridovich was his doctoral advisor and was awarded the medal first. Allegedly the enzyme in question is contained in Protandim.... anyway that's their story and their sticking with it. If you are debating health results with me as you appear to be doing then you were not paying attention to anything I said. My point was not if the stuff works or not but how it is marketed. Even if it works great it is marketed in a shady sort of way which does undermine its credibility because if this stuff is so great then why do they have to use a legal pyramid scheme to market it and why the deceptions and lies in their advertising?

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    1. I'm not involved in this business, but "schemes" are not legal. Therefore this is a way for people to purchase the product if they want to, and get involved in the business side if they want to. There is nothing misleading about network marketing or MLMs, and most are,as you mentioned, legal. If this isn't for you then leave it at that. I'm not understanding why you'd put so much energy into something you don't believe in. The biggest pyramid is the typical business model. 1 CEO makes the most money, a few executives make the second most, upper level management and so on until you get to the hundreds of factory workers who make a product and get paid very little. So, what's wrong with that? You aren't "uncovering" new information here. Like with any business, if you work hard and bring in more money And sell more product (even if you use a team to do it) you SHOULD make more than those who don't contribute as much.

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    2. so true. too many unsuccessful people making MLM sound like a scam. from what i have observed, too many ppl are using the scam word to draw attention, make it seem like there is never someone at the apex of a cooperation, and complain about the price. so, who is complaining about the price of gas and say, "I'm not buying."

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    3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21603266/?i=7&from=protandim

      I suggest you check this out and stop talking crap. Im from a medical background so I know what it is.

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  3. Apparently you haven't read Testimonials from real people using the product and experiencing the positive results of getting off medications that CREATE the same side effects we are trying to treat creating a vicious cycle,never adressing the real medical issue. We are all entitled to our opinions but why the haterism?

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  4. Dear Anonymous #2,

    If you care to carefully read ALL of what I read you will notice I state at the end of my comments "even if it actually works as preventative medicine". I'll leave the arguing about the science of this up to the scientists.

    My comments speak to the marketing and business side of this product which you don't even address in your comments which means you and I are talking past each other.

    What is without dispute and something that anybody can reasonably conclude after doing a modicum of research is that this product is marketed in an ethically-questionable manner.


    I do not hate this product nor anybody involved with it. I do reasonably feel contempt for those who take advantage of some people's trusting nature in order to exploit them for their own gain even if the arrangement is partially symbiotic.

    As for the testimonials you describe.... ALL the ones I watched were of people who also sell the product which gives their testimony a conflict of interest which is to say they are NOT unbiased witnesses.

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    Replies
    1. Dear kimmer, you are a douchebag hater. There are a few out there. When protandim is helping millions upon millions of people including your family or those you care about someday (which is inevitable), i will be sitting on a beach somewhere with my family enjoying health and financial freedom while your stuck in your moms basement writing blogs. Discredit this product as much as you want. The science is real. Its validated. The testimonials are real. My experience is real. This world has been waiting for protandim and im happy to be a part of it. So is my whole family. Hater.

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    2. I plead guilty to being a "douchebag hater"... I hate douchebags like you! ;-p

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  5. I got a ? Someone asked me to get involved and bein a part of a team and that I could make how ever much money I can want. I don't know the guy but he claims its a great oppurtunity and he seems to want me involved very badly but I don't know if its jus a scam or what he wants a meeting and what not to talk about it with his boss I don't know if its even worth the time

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  6. Obviously this person doesn't know how to go to Youtube and watch testimonial after testimonial of people almost in tears talking about the results of this product. The science and the SIX published peer-reviewed studies done by notable universities obviously don't mean anything to this person. Don't tell him about the twenty-three others being done. So here's the first lesson. It's spelled w.w.w.y-o-u-t-u-b-e.com and if you really want to prove something other than your narrow-mindedness, contact the company and try this all natural, ayurvedic medicine based product for yourself. Tell them about this blog, and I'm sure they will send you free samples. It will be interesting to see you yank this page down and change it into a testimonial. Remember, anybody can try to tear down something without actual experience in it. This is easy. But to make an experienced diagnosis of a thing actually takes courage and effort.

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    Replies
    1. Constantine is under the naive and simplistic impression that Youtube testimonials are proof of anything whatsoever. Apparently, Constantine did not bother to actually read anything I wrote and then take the time to grasp it, hence his uneven and oddball response above. I have been given samples of this product and have seen the promotional videos on DVD. Constantine, why do you think this product is being sold via Multi-Level Marketing and not in health food stores and other more mainstream and respectable avenues of commerce?

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    2. Anonymous #3, my recommendation would be to NOT get involved with this thing whatever it is. I have now been to two such meetings for two different MLM's not including getting chatted up by the friend-of-a-friend about this Protandum thing and get samples and DVD's and brochures and such. These schemes prey on people's desperation and/or greed.

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    3. Why is kimmer a "douchebag hater" just for not sharing your feelings about the product or opportunity? If you're certain to be a part of helping millions and living on the beach with a pile of money, then kimmer's opinion shouldn't matter. You certainly don't come across as being very professional when you brand those who are not interested as "haters". An attitude like that only makes readers that may have been interested in Lifevantage think that kimmer is absolutely correct.

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    4. Dear Cavalier, just for the record, I do plead guilty to being a "douchebag hater" as it is an incontrovertible fact that I hate douchebags. ;-p

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    5. you don't have to buy the product just go to your local herbalism store and buy Glutathione it is the same thing. :) hope this helps

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    6. Anonymous #20, that is quite interesting... I would like some confirmation of this but I will place this factoid on the blog with a link to the Wiki entry for this substance and invite folks to do their own research on it.

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    7. There have been zero studies conducted by universities on Protandim. The use of the term " peer reviewed studies " is totally misleading but a big buzzword with the lifevantage people. look at the studies - they are a joke and show nothing. How about conducting an actual clinical trial for efficacy - and safety while you are at it. I tried it and had stomach cramping and diarrhea for 3 days. The protandim folks say this is a good thing.

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    8. Anonymous #28,

      What? Stomach cramping and diarrhea for three days is NOT a good thing? Who doesn't love bowel aches and the runs? And to think one can experience all this while paying an arm and a leg is just too good to be true!

      Seriously though, you are right that there have been no independent peer-reviewed studies of this "product" and the suggestion that there have is myth fabricated by the folks at the top of the Protandim Pyramid.

      Delete
  7. LifeVantage is scam. The company constantly lies and misleads people. Most of the studies which have been done have Joe McCord as one of the authors, and the journals they were published in were of low quality (and one has Joe McCord on the board of directors). The original clinical trial done by McCord is nothing short of ridiculous, and there is evidence of data rigging. It also used company insiders as participants. The studies supposedly being done at other universities is also highly suspect. Paul Myhill claimed that a study is being done at UMN on diabetes and quoted the director as saying that Protandim is a "killer application" in the fight against diabetes. I contacted this doctor (Dr. Hering) and he absolutely denies saying that. LifeVantage lies about other studies as well. They claim a study was done at Harvard, when it was actually done in Colorado at McCord's lab. There have been absolutely NO studies which show an actual health benefit to humans who take the supplement. It's all smoke and mirrors. In fact, McCord just published a study which was conducted on humans and done properly which showed that even at twice the recommended dose, no positive effects were achieved and the placebo group actually showed a greater reduction in oxidative stress than the group taking Protandim. I believe this study was listed on clinicaltrials.gov, so McCord couldn't bury the results easily (unlike his first ridiculous trial). Not only is the science bunk, they charge about $1.50 a pill for ingredients which cost them less than .35 a pill to produce. Here is a link to an objective review done by AITSE: http://www.americaninstitutetechnologyscienceeducation.com/educational-resources/articles-video/alternative-medicine-and-nutrition/protandim-breakthrough-or-bunk-science-2/

    The other links provided by the author of this blog are excellent as well.

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  8. I want to put it out there that I am an Intern at Cleveland Chiropractic College in Kansas City. Protandim is targeting chiros and chiro students like crazy and they are falling hook line and sinker. Personally I was approached and seduced by a lot of the claims. It seemed like a no brainer with all that "credible research" and because patients take our word as authority on "hollistic" and "natural" type of lifestyle changes, we are in a prime position to market the hell out of this stuff and make some serious bank. In fact one of the top MLM ranked individuals was a chiro in Colorado before quitting to focus on how to spend his millions made on Protandim. His son is cashing $15,000+ checks monthly and it is probably much more now. That same son started chiropractic school the same time as me and didn't make it past the first term.

    I just want people to know that all Chiropractors are not fooled by these smoke and mirror science tactics. We have a very difficult science curriculum involved in our training, yet many students and doctors forget that immediately after finishing it. I personally used my training and read the journal articles and found very little application to human consumption benefits like they claimed. I do not believe that this is a harmful product necessarily and I do think that the business model can lead to a lot of money. Knowing that the marketing scheme is based on a lot of lies and false truths kept me from attaching my name to it. I felt as a Doctor and a caregiver it is immoral to knowingly use a position of influence to make money for something that is most likely a $1.50/pill placebo. Unfortunately more and more of my peers will be graduating soon and pushing this junk on their patients. It is my hope that people will have the knowledge not to associate the name Protandim with Chiropractic.

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  9. So all I have to say is if all the negative remarks above are true then are you saying that famous people (Donny Osmond being one of them) is just making believe that this amazing product works and is true in fact.
    Coriemora
    coriemora@Hotmail.com

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    Replies
    1. If you check with wikipedia you'll find that Mr Osmond is listed as a paid representative of the company, along with Montel Williams.

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    2. How unfortunate they are making fools of themselves giving their name to this sham...

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  10. Anonymous #4,

    Thanks for the wealth of factual information and broader contect, in particular, the phoniness and illegitimacy of the "studies" supposedly proving how fabulous the product is.... keep on fighting the good fight. Feel free to post more here as you find it.

    Anonymous #5,

    I'm glad you are making a stand within your own profession but it distresses me to learn that so many current and future chiropractors are getting mixed up with this which undermines the perceived legitimacy of chiropractic medicine.

    Anonymous #6,

    What does Osmond's or any other washed-up has-been celebrity's endorsement of a product have anything to do with the measure of it's scientific legitimacy? You believe something must be true because Donny Osmond says so? Oh dear....

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  11. Do you have to be 18 years old to sign up for this MLM? My 16 year old son is being targeted to sign up. Of course any 16 year old believes he can make millions is told so. I hope you have to be 18 in order to sign up. Anyone know?

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  12. Dear Anonymous #7

    I would imagine the rules that apply to your kid working for McDonald's apply to this which is to say I would imagine that he may sign up provided that U.S. child labor laws are respected. Beyond that I wouldn't hazard to say more given how little I know about the regs that govern high school-aged kids working in the job marketplace.

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  13. You are so completely full of shit, I am sorry that anybody even reads your lies, all your fake claims, you can just continue shitting on research, cause you are so amazing, and good at your fake fact finding. Folks like you waste people's hard earned, hard won discovery's and time.

    I take it, and it's off the charts, I know real people that are off oxygen, that have recovered from serious health issues. I myself have never felt better, I am sure you won't post this, because somewhere the real truth is, you get a kick out of scamming others and throwing the facts away. I am sure Dr. McCord, who has the units of measure named after him is very appreciative of your lies and bullshit.

    But you sit here, real pretty, hiding behind your webpage, and put a product and compmany to shame that is amazing. Maybe you don't like MLM, so what, you do a dis-service with all your lying.

    Michelle Renee

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    1. I notice a trend emerging from the pro-Protandim crowd as perfectly personified by "Michelle Renee": under-educated, intellectually unsophisticated and emotionally immature. In short, these sorts of personalities are the perfect dupes for a scam as they have simple minds that are easily manipulated.

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    2. Yes, anger and resentment at anyone who disagrees with the product or opportunity. Not very professional. Anyone who is reading this blog and considering Lifevantage must surely be turned off by such hostility.

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    3. Anonymous #43,

      I have noted with interest all the vitriol coming from these trolls and I smell the love of money in it... these are paid trolls from LifeVantage who are doing their master's bidding and/or are distributors who fear these sorts of forums are the places their potential clients are going when they research this product online after initial contact with said distributors or their "downline" sub-distributors. Always follow the money and you will find the facts at the end of that trail.

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  14. Apparently, Michelle is unaware of the placebo effect...

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  15. Theres tons of proof that this product does work. Where all your proof that it dosent?

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  16. I am noticing a pattern emerging in the comments here: the frequency of those supporting Lifevantage/Protandim demonstrate sub-par grammar and social skills. Less educated people are more likely to make easier dupes for MLM's and other types of scams. As for Anonymous #9's comment: What proof is there that this works better than any other placebo? I already have provided my proof and others in the comments here have added even more. You haven't even bothered to check any of that? You are intellectually lazy and thus easy to dupe and not surprisingly have been duped already... by Lifevantage/Protandim.

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  17. Is anyone aware of a supplement that would serve as a substitute ...or knock off brand of Protandim?

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    1. I bought a bottle from a friend who has been ceaselessly promoting Protandim to me for weeks. I just wanted to see what the ingredient label showed.

      Protandim contains 77 mg of calcium and 675 mg total of these five ingredients (which they call their proprietary blend): Milk thistle extract, bacopa extract, ashwagandha extract, green tea extract and tumeric extract. With the exception of milk thistle I already had been taking the other four supplements because I saw value in taking them after doing the research. When I told my friend this she said, "Oh, but Protandim's combination of these ingredients is in such a blend as to make it so much more powerful than just taking the ingredients separately! That's what the patents are for!"

      This must be what Lifevantage calls "the Nrfu Synergizer"; that is, the synergistic balance of the amount of these five ingredients contained in Protandim that is what they say differentiates their product.

      Hmmm, I thought. Then why doesn't the Protandim label instruct one against ingesting any further ingredients such as are contained in their pill to prevent upsetting this delicate, patented balance? There are no such instructions on the label, leading me to the conclusion that, while individually these five ingredients may have healthful benefits, the patented proprietary blend of them just isn't that important.

      So, Colorado Native, to answer your question....Yes, there are supplements one can buy as a substitute for Protandim: Just buy the supplements themselves! And in so doing you won't be subsidizing the lavish lifestyles of highly-paid spokesmen Donny Osmond and Montel Williams.

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    2. Yeah, I recently started an "intimate association" with a single parent mom who is trying to make a career out of being an independent distributor of Protandim. She often gives me little bits of info and hints about the product and company. I am surprised that being a retired navy reserve officer she would even go in for something like that. It's her only bad point.

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    3. This cult preys on people's emptiness in their lives and/or their over-optimism/over-hopefulness and/or greediness/simplemindedness and intelligent people can be simpleminded as intellect and wisdom are two different things entirely.

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  18. I'm sure the Chinese already have several....

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  19. I personally know of one lady who had skin cancer and has a clean bill of health after taking Protandim....another who has no more "liver spots" on her hands and face and has pictures of scars disappearing from her skin...I feel more energy than ever before since starting Protandim 2 weeks ago....the blood work shows improvement....I think you should take it for 30 days and talk to some people taking it before you trash it for being marketed multi-level. It is so much cheaper and easier to market it one on one for the company....people like to share their results with others....I am sorry you are so negative about things...

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    1. There are a number of things wrong with this comment. First off, you do not know for a fact that Protandim is why the skin cancer stopped and why the liver spots disappeared. A correlation in time does not at all necessitate a causal connection. Other things might have been at work. Also, are your claims verifiable or heresay? Your own energy level change could just as easily be caused by the placebo effect... if you believe something will happen the power of your mind can easily create such effects. Why would I spend money on something that is so obviously intended to extract money from me and is so over-priced? How do I know it is even safe to use given how little outside and peer-reviewed study to which it has been subjected? I have followed the facts and I have observed reality and it is not being negative to point out reality. If you wish to live in a fool's paradise wherein it is being negative to be anything but effusive about things then you are choosing to live detached from reality in your own "perception as reality".

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  20. Do you have to tear someone down that you haven't even met just because they don't agree with you?

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    1. That is a weak non-argument that dodges addressing the facts I have presented. I have certainly met LifeVantage/Protandim-cultists and they seem to have surrendered their lives to this product in a way that transcends merely being customer loyal but crosses over into a sort of consumer sycophantism.

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  21. Great article Kim. You're right about the guilt by association. I'm embarrassed to be of the same species as these moronic ethically-challenged charlatans; I can only imagine how you must feel being in the same profession.

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  22. Thanks, Vogel, but I'm not in the charlatan business so I don't know how it feels to be in that business.

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  23. I have always been curious about the negeative comments around the placebo effect of products. If someone takes a pill thinking it is going to have a positive impact on their condition and it does. What does it matter if it is the placebo effect or not? If it took the placebo effect of Protandim to create the change I think Protandim should get the credit for the improvement in health. Clearly their marketing efforts encouraged the use of their product that created the placebo effect. I do appreciate the research you have done. I have always been curious as to why we attack the placebo effect in these cases.

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    1. Anonymous #10, A placebo by its very nature is not a cure or even a medicine any more than believing in Benny Hinn or a Witch Doctor and all three want lots of your money. Following your logic we should just switch over to placebos throughout the medical field provided we can dupe people into believing they work. Protandim is one hell of an expensive placebo that if you read the fine print promises nothing.

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    2. Hahaha! The question particularly focused on why you are so fascinated with the placebo idea. IF IT HELPS THE PEOPLE ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS TO ARGUE WHETHER IT IS PLACEBO OR NOT. and chill out with your sarcasm "its one hell of an expensive placebo" ITS NOT INTENDED TO TREAT OR DIAGNOSE ANY SPECFIC CONDITON. BUT HAHA IT IS CLINICALLY PROVEN TO REDUCE OXIDATIVE STRESS BY avg 40% :)

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    3. Clinically proven by whom? All these studies allegedly proving its merits are NOT peer-reviewed but are conducted in-house or similarly by the folks selling this stuff... mother of all conflicts of interest! As for your logically-fallacious comments about placebos... a placebo is by nature not medicine and given this is not medicine and has not a shred of valid scientific evidence to support its alleged merits all the while a mound of illegitimate alleged studies are claimed to support it begs the question "what's up with that?"

      Delete
  24. My bad. I got you confused with the anonymous user who posted about Cleveland Chiropractic College, etc.

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  25. Explain to me then why my Mother - in-law who suffers from allergies so bad , that she has to leave the US for the past 30 years . I'm talking so bad she will wind up in the hospital on breathing machine. now after on 3 months on Protandim she can now stay in the US.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous #11, I can offer you not one, but two alternative explanations. One, your mother-in-law has a powerful mind and it has empowered the placebo effect to wondrous effect in regards to Protandim use effects. Two, a coincidence in time does not prove a causal connection ergo, your mother-in-law benefited from something else changing her health near the same time she began using Protandim.

      Delete
    2. I could take a stab at explaining it just as soon as anonymous provides reliable medical records that thoroughly document the case history. That's how medicine and science works.

      Delete
    3. You're asking too much! ;-p

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  26. It is quite amusing to read all of these statements,and so many of them are protrayed by the old supposed owner of this company. It seems to me he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Needless to say, he is not reaming the benefits of the company now, because of that situation. Why don't you whiners take a hike and spend your time on something positive like helping other people become healthy rather than cheap shots like this bunch has done.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous #12, Yep, now somebody else is reaping the benefits of all the money LifeVantage makes off of Protandim dupes.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I had never heard of "Protandim" before last night when I was telling my girlfriend of my thyroid being out of control after 28 years and being over then under medicated leaving me very tired. She suggested the supplement "Protandim." Because I take sustenance meds (thyroid), and because herbs are not regulated in any way, I do not take anything without looking into the side effects, and reading up on reviewers who have experience, both good and bad to see what they are saying. That's how I stumbled onto this site, and glad I did.

    Oh this so reminds me of something that my mother had bought about 30 years ago, I believe it was called "KM." Not sure of that, but it was marketed the same way, by "distributers," but in home settings. It was touted as a miracle elixir. It was a dark brown liquid that was mostly an herbal mix. The bottle said that there were no side effects and that it was completely safe. My mother gave me some since I was low iron and tired a lot. A sister-in-law, who is an RN, read the ingredients and indicated that one of the herbs, Cascara Segara, will make you go to the bathroom. I thought she meant that it may make you have "diarrhea," so if that did not happen to me, it was all good. However, after taking one tablespoon daily for a month or so, I had a seizure one morning that sent me straight away to the doctor. It turns out that that herb was actually a diuretic. What had happened was that I lost more water than I was taking in, which can be very dangerous.

    My point here is the way KM was marketed or distributed. Protandim appears to have a huge market already, and from what appears to be pretty solid research by you of this company, conflicts of interest as you outlined should be a very big red flag. Unfortunately, people want to believe. They think "natural" is better, no matter if it is unregulated, no matter if they know or don't know what the hell is in that herb they are taking. There was an article years ago in Consumer Reports about herbs, the dangers, the damage they can do, and the deaths they have caused.

    I hear the same thing about Hashimoto and some chiropractors who have jumped on this autoimmune thing. They have a cure that the medical establishment just does not get. From the blogs, many people are buying into this. I'm not sure what to make of it yet myself, but I'm sure there are lots of customers to be had as thyroid disease is relatively prevalent.

    Thanks for the research and info. With some of the replies here...it's kind of like you are swimming upstream.

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    Replies
    1. Thanks for your feedback on this product and the legitimate links you provided regarding this rip off! I know I am not buying it! Shame on Donny Osmond & Montel Williams for promoting it. I guess some people will do ANYTHING for money.

      Delete
    2. They want to make money or really believe this product will help them based upon blind faith and spurious anecdotal evidence or a mix of both.

      Delete
  29. Part 2 - In my family's case, yes, they are believing all the hype based on HOPE. HOPE in a better life, HOPE that the product (as it says on their links) "works 100% of the time" (that line, above all else, scares the crap out of me). Works on what 100% of the time? It is honestly sad to me that like every other MLM out there, LifeVantage and Protandim are preying on the hopeful gullibility of people like my brother, his girlfriend, my nephew, his wife, and all those out there that they are telling this is the cure-all for all that ails us. It causes me a great deal of concern because nothing I say will make any difference. They are looking at this as the end-all to all their worries, both medically and financially. Some are even stopping their regular meds to take Protandim only, which again, scares me. Now, they're giving it to their dog. It matters not my warnings or my past experience at NuSkin, Amway, Herbalife. They must do what they must do. Once the bait is cast and the hook is planted, the fish is landed and clubbed over the head by promises of grandios wealth and cures for everything from acne to cancer. By then, only time will be the telling of the end of the story. For me, time meant an empty pocketbook that I could yodel into. This, I fear, is what will happen with my hapless family members who are spending their hard earned cash buying into a mixture of 5 herbs that was NOT developed by a doctor and the only doctor involved is PAID and on the company board of directors. I don't care if he has a Phd, or if he received an award for his research, he now makes MILLIONS off of people like my brother. To me, that takes away any credibility he had. I can go buy those 5 herbs on my own at the organic market for less than $50 a month. Fine, if they want to take the product for the benefits, great. Do it. And if you feel it's helping, continue. But just because you want a cow, it doesn't mean you have to buy the whole farm.

    Thanks for your research. I'm totally with you. I wish people would remember that products like Dr. Pepper and Coca-Cola were once sold as "health elixirs" and cigarettes were once touted as "aids to digestion". We all know how beneficial those are to our health now, don't we?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Don't confuse these people with the facts! ;-p

      Delete
    2. Hey wait a sec...didn't Dr. Pepper win an Elliot Cresson medal? Who are we to argue with such an esteemed medical authority?

      Delete
    3. I couldn't find that in their list of winners but if that is indeed the case it must have been a slow year they won...

      Delete
    4. Concerned Sister-You should be concerned. As I've mentioned earlier I have started an intimate friendship with someone a few months ago who is a protandim distributor. It amazes me how a woman who was an officer in the navy reserve could believe that she can support two twelve year old kids as a single parent by doing something like this.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous #42,

      It seems hard to believe such people could go for this but the gentleman who tried to get me hooked up on this is a good man who is in a vulnerable point in his life where he is getting along in years and after a lifetime of success in life find that life spiritually-lacking and lacking a higher purpose and this marketing cult has given him that sense of purpose and common cause and shared experience and sense of being part of something bigger than oneself... his wife's church was cutting it so Protandim became his god and LifeVantage his church family.

      Delete
  30. I personally don't know this product or anyone marketing it from Adam, I happened across this blog looking at penny stock. Here is what I will say though. I know who Donald Trump, Berkshire Hathaway, Robert K are as business people and companies. I would much more easily accept their opinions on ANY business model than some guy with no net worth. MLM which he would have you think is some shady thing, is a multi billion product distribution channel. I've done very well franchising my business at 180k a pop, but the 99% will never have such an opportunity. Understand this, 64% of mine still fail and those who succeed spend 3-5 years to get net ROI. So... If you can take charge of your life, have a shot for $200 bucks go for it. It's not for me but I know it's "possible", I know people helping others and making what they earn. To Kim: as for you downing the others, I'm not super educated but I work hard and had a lot of desire to be successful. You should do more research on that. That's what the most successful AND happy people have always had over "brilliant" people with no vision.
    Just my two cents........J.

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  31. I have provided facts. If you wish to mindlessly believe something that is unsubstantiated by scientific fact simply because Donald Trump and Robert K believe(d) in it and because Berkshire Hathaway realizes fools and their money are soon parted and fools are born every second then be my guest.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #13, one other thing, just because a business enterprise makes those at the top of its chain quite wealthy does not legitimize it... drug lords and organized crime kingpins are an excellent example of this. Likewise, just because a business enterprise is a multi-billion dollar product distribution channel does not legitimize it... a global drug production and distribution network or a military dictatorship like North Korea is an excellent example of this.

      Delete
  32. Interesting topic and comments. Members of my family are now becoming involved with taking and distributing Protandim. Whether it is legitimate or a scam I do not know. Nor do I have faith in purported 'studies' for or against. Neither am I concerned if the product is causing 'placebo effects' which makes people feel their health is improved or they have been cured. Neither am I concerned that there may be one person or another who has 'discovered' and is 'promoting' the product, or whether their qualifications medically are established. The reality is it could just be a farmer or bushwalker who stumbles upon beneficial herbs which used in combination are an outstanding health aid. It may also be that 'clinical studies' may be over-rated as they so often are in conflict with each other.

    With all that having been said these are my concerns: There is absolutely no need for this or any other business to operate as a MLM. In my life I have seen over and over again that MLMs operate on a 'seemingly religious fervor' amongst adherents. So much time is involved in 'at-homes' marketing, conventions etc, selling to everyone we see to the extent that in many cases (not all) it is so mentally consuming that barely an hour goes by without the company/product becoming part of our very psyche and practically all new acquaintance and existing relationships conversation topics and thought processes. I have found with so many MLMs it becomes a religious experience in itself. As a person who has been part of Amway, Golden Products, Nutrimetics, SeaSilver and so many more I can honestly tell you that each one of these products I have seen great value in, and yes I may yet see great value in Protandim. But I have also seen the disruption the MLM experience has brought to peoples lives and I wish so much that these in reality Pyramid schemes (or Operations) would cease to exist and that these products would be offered in the mainstream retail outlets to which they would best be suited. Kimmer, I feel after reading all these posts that you are happy for those who may benefit from Protandim for whatever reason, but that you are also unhappy with Protandim being perhaps seemingly over-zealous in making claims as to any of or all of its 'benefits' are so life-changing.(As so many other MLM companies do likewise). I feel you also feel that Protandim would be better suited to being sold on a shelf at a store rather than by MLM. I understand your feeling that way because its credibility and more appropriate pricing according to those factors could actually benefit the products reputation if indeed it is as legitimate and beneficial as it purports itself to be.

    I sincerely hope my family does not involve themselves any more with the MLM side as far their distributing it is concerned. But if if they wish to buy it for themselves and use it then I am happy for them to do so. It may be legitimate or a scam .... only time will really tell. In the meantime Kimmer why don't you do a study of your own ... by taking Protandim for say ... 6 months .... and document your experience daily or weekly. If you experience health benefits then lets give Protandim some beneficial recognition .... but if you receive no benefits or experience unexplained side effects then you maybe should document that too. Your viewpoint may then have greater credibility, good, bad or undecided? Just a thought! In the meantime I hope to see all such MLM products on a store shelf one day where I can go in undisturbed by hyped up MLM zealots and fellow converts trying to sign me up. Then I may even buy Protandim to check it out for myself without undue pressures ... who knows?

    Wishing Kimmer and all here good health!

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous #14, thanks for taking the time to read my piece in athoughtful and measured fashion. If the makers of this product really cared about people thee would not charge an arm and a leg for their product... their price points are insane which brings me to my answer to your suggestion I conduct my own six-month trial of this product: I don't have that much money to burn. Furthermore, considering how little regard I hold for the makers of this product it would gall me to send them my money knowing what I know about their product.

      Delete
    2. There's a very simple and reliable way to investigate whether the product has significant effects on any health parameters -- it's called a clinical trial; and the only clinical trial on Protandim that looked at a health-related paramater showed that it was less effective than a placebo.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22268125

      Epic fail for Protandim.

      Delete
    3. It's just as effective as herbal remedies claiming to make one's penis larger...

      Delete
  33. Hello Kimmer,

    I definitely agree with a lot of your arguments and as
    someone who's been into MLM experience, I can say how disapponting the system is and the products to sell as well. Amway, Herbalife and now this new Protand one are a waste of time and money and above all of hope. My main issue with selling such products is due to the simpy feeling that I had everytime people were tried to be trapped in to the net by our gurus. I still keep in mind one particular guru at Amway who made me lose control several time by hiw way of selling the miraculous pills. He would simply step up lives of naïve people, he would undress them of any sign of dignity only to make them feel the solution to any problems were those Amway pills. As I was to be tought about how to sell the mirracle to people I had the chance to see the psycholgical manipulation to the poin that I sensed a lack of simpathy, compassion and respect for the gurus' future victims lives. It happened this guy to be a good friend of mine and years later he invited me to acquaint myself with the good of those out of order and unique solutions to uour health, physical and spiritual. I could see him stepping up on people's dignity, taking advantage on people with divorce or in risk of divorce issues, with financial problems and risk to even end up in the streets. These ones, were his ideal victims. When one day I saw how one of them were was crying because her husband woukdnlive her and how he was trying to sell her Amway I had a fought with him. Our friendship has ended but not before making the pint that people when they accept to talk to him is because they need a reason of hope which he exploits it to the limit that he ends selling them lyes. I have never been a seller and would never be.
    Definitely the MLM experrience pushes the buttons of what Anonimous 14 says: it is a cultist ritual that wash up your brain, hooks you into a religious delirium were the god is the money and uou are a slave. Family and social life are literally conditioned by the interest to keep finding possible clients. The guy stopped to have a coherent family life and tonme at least stopped to be a person I want to have him in the near by at all.
    As of Protandime or however the name is I have been contacted throug Linkedin by somebody from this Company riggt today, May 27 2012 by a guy who pretends to expand the business in Hong Kong after so much success in Japan and bla bla bla.
    I then checked online and found your blog. Thanks so much for it and the testimonials pro and against the product. You see I am a religious person and I genuinely believe in God. When I saw the way MLM is meant to make you money I felt lime a sectarian system. This is what really scared me and the way it shrewdly approaches to almost the religious speech in order to make you feel you have found the mirracle you were looking for. I did not know it was an MLM system. I visited the youtube video they sent me and for only few secconds I watched I thought to be enough to not be interested. Then i found your blog. Keep encouraging people to not spend their time, money and hopes on this scams.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #15, thanks for taking the time to read my blog and then compose your lengthy response and post it here. I'm pleased you found my piece edifying and useful. The comment thread here is as useful as my blog post above is by way of the insights of the skeptics and the "sheepness" of the defenders of and believers in the product in question who have the temerity to insult our collective intelligence with their foolish talk.

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    2. Interesting...as I was approached today about buying this product and how it could help my friend who has cancer. It sounds like a total scam that I do not want to waste my sick friends precious time left on suggesting she tries it. Thank you for making it easy for me to check it out. Any suggestions in place of this product?

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    3. Dear Anonymous #16,

      I'm glad my piece on this topic was edifying and useful to you. I'm so sorry to hear of your friend's illness. As for suggestions my best advice is consistent sincere prayer, consistent good sleep, consistent healthy diet, consistent vigorous exercise, and consistent positive attitude and as well as get multiple mainstream medical opinions and search for different doctors in the mainstream who are able to think outside the box and get results for the particular cancer that afflicts your friend.

      Kimmer

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    4. Protandim is what it is, simple, it reduces oxidative stress. No need to make medical claims, just look at the studies, some on humans, some on animals, some in vitro, but all peer reviewed, and most paid for outside the company.

      And yes, we're opening in Hong Kong that's no joke, pre launch is happening soon.

      Delete
    5. Jeff, apparently you are ill-informed/misled or perhaps you are the misinformer/misleader in this chapter. There have been NO peer-reviewed studies supporting your product. All the french-kiss resulting studies were IN-HOUSE but your company simply tells everybody they are "peer-reviewed" which simply isn't the case. They are in-house and payed for by you-know-whom! What peer-reviewed studies have been conducted showed there was no difference from placebo text subjects. That you are moving into Hong Kong in no way proves any legitimacy to your product... illegal drugs and hokum alike go in and out of there.

      Delete
  34. I have looked at this product and it seems to have popped up out of thin air after immunocal and one or two others like it. The product is supposed to boost glutathione production which in-turn will give you the ability to repair sicknesses caused by oxidative stress. I like the idea and sounds great and really want it to work. But will it??? what i do not like is the delivery system, bioavailability and rate of absorption. This little yellow hard shellac coated pill is compressed so hard up to 2000 - 20000 psi so it wont break down when you shake the bottle or turn it upside down everyday. So when you do take it not all is absorbed as is with so many other hard capsules, for an expensive product like this you want 100% absorption if at all possible. To me 23 minutes or more for any absorption is way to long and cannot be as effective as an isotonic product. You see my take is if this was in an a powdered system to be mixed with an once or two of H20 and consumed on an empty stomach first thing in the AM it would multiply the efficacy exponentially. Mean while Life Science may be the best alternative.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The inconvenient truth is there is no objective and verifiable and repeatable scientific evidence to back up this product to go with all the other red flags associated with it.

      Delete
  35. I recently started taking Protandim, and I notice my perception, mental focus and clarity, are vastly improved. And this was only two weeks ago. This week I checked four books out of the library, after an intuitive lead to an author that I'd met briefly twenty years ago. I read three of the books, and am walking through the fourth today. I am a slow read usually, so this is amazing. I've considered the option, after checking the wikipedia page on Protandim, of purchasing separately the active ingredients, and yet, I think it's a pain to manage bottles and multiple pills. The packaging of Protandim is striking. I'm a customer, probably won't be a distributor, unless a miracle occurs regarding my ability to pop the facts, but if I can continue to read like I have this week, then that's a big benefit. Kimmer, I respect your skepticism, but it might be time to shed your skin like a snake does his. And if this is that, your writing here, I call it a red flag that I cross where a snake has been. I could buy all the ingredients to make a good salad dressing, but I'm not going to call Paul Newman a creep.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #17,

      I shed my skin on a regular basis due to my current rapid growth as a human being but thanks for the suggestion were I not currently already doing that. Your experience with Protandim is neither proof nor science and one cannot rule out the possibility your experience is caused by your mind believing this substance will work. Your brain has incredible power if adequately unleashed. However, just be careful you are not so open-minded to new ideas that your brain falls out. As for the last two sentences of our remarks, they are rather incomprehensible to me. Would you be so kind as to clarify what you intended to say in them?

      Delete
  36. A friend of a friend who became a close friend who then had a sorta close friend with a not so close aquaintance said they heard.....

    Yea, you are certainly a credible sourece buddy..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jeremy,

      There certainly seems to be a pattern or rather a cluster of patterns to this, doesn't there?

      Delete
  37. My buddy's mom's hair dresser has a dog who suffers from terrible gas and mouth order was given Protandim, and it has helped that pooch immensly. I am going to buy it for my cats.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous #18,

      Protandim-coated butt-plugs are the bomb!

      Delete
  38. On MLM, I personally don't see a problem in MLM (or what ever you want to call it). It is interesting how passionately we fight with our close people who think about us and want us to be more healthy and successful. On the other hand not a lot of people challenge info comming from TV, for instance. People on TV we don't know (in person) tell us every day what to buy and we buy things without any research. Does anybody ask our permission to show us a commercial or to advertise on a radio? Olympic athlets promote coka-cola but they are heroes, right? Nobody gets upset about them or challenges them or blames them for growing obisity and health problems. This is traditional way of marketting and it is OK, right?IF we buy something from a store or a farm (traditional way of marketting and selling)but not from MLM (evil way of marketting and selling)does it mean it is ok to consume artificial dies and flavors, hormones,GMO and to wear cloth basically made of plastic? "We used 2 water bottles to make one t-shirt". I personally don't want to wear 2 water bottles. I want to wear cotton, natural cotton. Is there anything wrong about it? Is there anything wrong about the company that sells a combination of 5 natural herbs? What is shady about it? The product does what it is supposed to do and it can be confirmed by a simple blood test at any lab. We know and fight and discuss every little aspect of the product, inventor, company and everybody who is involved in it and not. And I think it is ok and it is a good thing but do we have even close amount of info and understanding about products we use and our children use every day that come to our homes through traditional busynesses? MLM has a lot of personal attachment. When distributors get rijections they take it personal and get upset. When people get excited about a product or an opportunity they start bombarding everybody with information thinking they are helping their loved ones. Sometimes we don't know how to say "no". It is OK to say "no" as simlpe as it is. It is ok to say "no" if the product, time, busyness is not right for you. Not "maybe" but "no", so you don't get involved in something that won't work for you, in something you wont put time or effords in, in something you will be disappointed and will badmouth for the rest of your life. Some people simply have a wrong perseption or are not educated enough about MLM. All I know it is hard work.

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    1. O.L.1,

      Have you ever heard of the terms "straw man argument" and "obfuscation"?

      I'm sorry to rain on your parade but MLM's with just a handful of exception have a very negative reputation and deservedly so because in most cases they are used by those whom don't possess a legitimate product or service hence the need to operate as an MLM. Your relativistic comparison of MLM's to other more traditional business modalities is absurd beyond the pale.

      You are quite right about MLM's utilizing a great deal of personal attachment... they do that quite intentionally in the manner of missionaries and evangelists and proselytizers. There is a distinct brain-washing element to all of those I have noticed from personal experience, experience that is every bit as valid as your alleged personal experience with this product. You observe the product and the effect you allege it has upon you which cannot as of now be proven to be caused by the product and not your mind whereas I observe the people involved in this and the cultish brainwashed manner in way they behave... and no, it's not about folks not being educated enough about MLM but quite the opposite... for it to work effectively (as a business model) ignorance is mandatory as is the case with all pyramid schemes.

      Delete
  39. On marketting the product, I can say that I have a friend who saw protandim at GNC but nobody could explain what it was. The owner said it was a new product but never explained anything to him. I know a woman who tried to put an order for protandim after watching ABCprimetime investigation when it was aired but her order had never been filled. So probubly something didn't work in traditional system. There are right products for right people. On the product, I can say that my husband used to have pain everywhere in his body. He used to take 3-4 pills of advil 2 to 3 times a day. It is at least 180 pills of advil a month. They sell a bottle of advil, 200 caplets for about $15. After taking protandim for 3 weeks he stoped using advil. He doesn't need it anymore. He doesn't have pain anymore. He sleeps well and doesn't sweat anymore. His feet used to get swollen so much he whould not be able to wear his shoes. I do not recall last time he complained about his health. He has been taking protandim for 2.5 month. I've been taking it for 1 month and I sleep better. I work on my computer till 1am and used to have a hard time to fall asleep as my brain kept working. I have a very good rest nowdays. We pay $40 per month per person for Protandim. I think it is not bad considering than we don't waste money on advil and speeling pills any more. By the way, we are still paying off $1000 medical bill for lots of tests which confired that there was nothing wrong with my husband. And as far as I know bloggers make money based on traffic of their web sites. So even mr Kimmer just like other bloggers has his interest in talking about such a booming product while others are still hesitating. Oh and by the way, mr Kimmer I am sure the company is able to provide some free samples of Protandim for you to test it. Maybe you are just too busy making money doing what you are doing here(or whatever you want to call it).

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    1. Dear O.L.2,

      What's this O.L. 1&2 nonsense? Why not just sign your own name to your own post if you are willing to go on record on behalf of this product? As for ad-money for bloggers, that's hilarious! I have never made a cent off this blog and that is fairly typical for a vast majority of bloggers which makes them like most people involved with Protandim aside from the fact most bloggers don't lose money blogging unlike most users of Protandim. Your recounting of your own benefits from using this product sound no different than the testimony of an acolyte of a new sect proclaiming how their new-found faith has transformed their lives. Did Dr. Joe McCord perchance die on the cross for your sins and save you? Your tone sure seems like you feel that is so. Protandim moved to MLM because it was a FAIL in the regular marketplace. There is a very good reason for that: in and of itself it does not work. For those whom feel it works for them it would seem that their faith and the power of positive thinking and the social interaction they derive from the MLM gospel revival experience is the actual causation for their seeming near-miraculous recoveries (assuming these stories are not complete fictions).

      Delete
    2. Jeeez Kim... its a known fact that pharmaceutical companies pay people to blog against natural products that actually help people. Go ahead admit it. You can't get a job so you live in your mothers spare bedroom, look up 5-10 Big new words in the dictionary every day and TRY to manipulate people into thinking they are crazy for believing God's natural medicine was given to man for his benefit. So sad you have sold your soul to Big Pharma! Although I am not, I wld much rather be guilty for being associated with a MLM company with a harmless product than a pharmaceutical entity owned by doctors, giving kick backs to docs who push their drugs which ARE killing people. Sadly, you have no sense of self worth and choose to do EXACTLY what you accuse MLMs of...... prey on people .... peope looking for truth... YOU attempt to make them feel duped by natural product manufacturers. ..patting them on the back as if they've made some incredibly intelligent decision to walk away from a scam. If you were truly motivated to help people not be duped, you wld be sharing all your newly learned big words by blogging on the FDA-pharmaceutical-doctor racket. Get a life.. clearly the pharmaceutical company paying you to try to destroy the credibility of natural products isn't paying you enough... if you can't afford $40 a month to try something you are speaking against. Hmmm..where is this guys credibility people!!!???. As in anything in life involving people, one must look past the hype. The proof is in the pudding. Oh, just curious Kim.. is the pharmaceutical company you blog on behalf of the one trying to create a synthetic of Protandim?

      Delete
    3. Jeeez, Anonymous #41...

      It's equally true that MLM's and other scams pay people to do likewise!

      Not only can I get a job I have more than one job and am about to add one or two more all the while attending college full-time... and if I were being payed by Big Pharma I would not be working so much!

      I live in my own place... unlike you I suspect... you are doing a bit of projecting, no?

      $40 a month? You are smoking crack my friend. Even if that was it all was that is a lot for something that makes a lot of people sick and makes a lot of other people merely waste their money for no effect good or ill.

      DO NOT bring God's name into this abomination! Just sayin'...

      If you must define yourself by what you are against (Big Pharma & the FDA) and live in a conspiracy theory-dominated world then you have a major problem, especially when you as the "good guy" "voice crying in the wilderness" must follow the MLM formula that is of a dubious ethical nature not one iota less scurrilous and often more so than your alleged enemies.

      I am not trying to make anybody do anything aside from becoming Free Thinkers unlike you, a LifeVantage sockpupplet. How much did they pay you to troll on here?

      Given the profit margins of pharmaceutical companies why would one slum around creating a synthetic version of a product that doesn't work?

      Delete
    4. LOL.....I love the arguments against "Big Pharma"! Don't you realize that the big pharmaceutical companies are also in the supplement business? The supplement business is a multi-billion dollar industry, not some little mom and pop cottage operation.

      Wyeth, Bayer, Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline......sound familiar? They all sell supplements. "Big Pharma" isn't out to suppress the supplement industry, and if they thought that LV's little curry pill had any merit, they would just buy up all the available stock, or make their own version and sell it. The patents are useless....it's just a recipe which can be altered, renamed, and sold. There is no magic formula....as LV has proven by changing it for the Japanese market.

      Delete
  40. Protandim and Life vantage rocks and is helping people both in heatlth and financially - Kimmer you are a hater and have too much time on your hands.

    You have NO clue what you are talking about...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #19,

      Protandim and LifeVantage apparently don't improve your grammar or spelling abilities.

      Delete
  41. Dear Kimmer, I just found your blog and I want to let you know how much I am enjoying it. I found it when I started doing research on this Protandim Stuff. My curiosity was peaked when a high level executive at our company suddenly gave notice and is now going to go work for them. In talking to this person for less than 60 seconds about this sudden move, This person has obviously drunk the KOOL-AID, as a lot of your posters here seem have it on tap. (Apparently they don't teach reading comprehension in school anymore!,...... Maybe that is a "feature" that they can get working on there at Lifevantige) Anyway, just had to let you know I appreciate what you are doing as far as educating people and simply providing additional data, and letting people decide for themselves. (I would love to know how many of these "Anonymous" posters really work, or are related to someone that works for their company.) (Do you think they are possibly FAUX News viewers as well, because they have a really difficult time handling FACTS?) Sorry, but a FACTUALLY uninformed public has become a real epidemic in our country lately. I don't have the heart to tell this former coworker what I have found about his new gold mine opportunity. Keep up the good work.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Dear Mountainbeachgirl,

    You are quite welcome and thanks for taking the time to peruse my humble little space here on the internets.

    Yeppers, a whole lot 'o' Kool-Aid drinkin' goin' on here with these people... Faux News viewers are no worse than the dolts who drink the Kool-Aid on MSNBC... extremists are extremists no matter which gang colors they wear be it red or blue. ;-p

    ReplyDelete
  43. OMG! WHERE HAVE I BEEN? I AM 60 AND HAVE NEVER HEARD OF PROTANDIM UNTIL 2 WEEKS AGO. I HAVE READ THE BLOGS AND SOME ARE VERY PASSIONATE IN THE WAY THEY FEEL ABOUT THE PRODUCT, GOOD OR BAD. I PREFER TO AGREE WITH THE OPINION THAT PROTANDIM IS MORE OF A MARKETING PLOY. DID I MENTION I WAS 60 AND PROTANDIM WAS NEVER ON MY RADAR? HOW COULD I HAVE SURVIVED THIS LONG WITHOUT THIS PRODUCT? SOMEHOW I DONT THINK I MISSED MUCH. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A PRODUCT AROUND EVERY CORNER THAT HAS THE "CURE ALL" FOR EVERY ACHE, PAIN OR PROBLEM KNOWN TO MAN. JUST USE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT AND DONT CLIMB ON EVERY BANDWAGON. I THINK FOR ME IM GOING TO LET THIS PASS!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous #20,

      I, too, had not heard of this product until I was introduced to it by the aforementioned friend of a friend last year. I'm sure there are plenty of other scams that have heretofore missed our attention; lucky us! Just so you know this little bit of "netiquette" (internet etiquette): when you are using ALL CAPS you are considered to be yelling! ;-)

      Delete
  44. Well done, Kimmer, thank you. I can't even start taking seriously any comments starting with insults, never mind buying from people who's arguments come down to that. Your review is very helpful. I looked into it after being approached by a distributor. I have checked other facts, and know for sure I will not spend my money on it, no bad feelings. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous #21,

      Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad you found my piece useful. I have no bad feelings for the poor dupes at the bottom of this pyramid but I do have bad feelings for the pointy-heads at the top of this pyramid. ;-p

      Delete
  45. wait haven't there been hundreds of medical journals done on this stuff? Or are you just ignoring that? I think you can find them on PubMed.gov

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous #22,

      What hundreds of medical journals that are positive about this product but DO NOT have Dr. McCord's name on them have been done on this product? Quite apparently all of this goes right over your head!

      Delete
  46. Is there anyone out there who has tried Protandim and it DIDN'T work?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Um, yes there is and such a question is downright dumb in light of the fact that even legitimate products (which this most certainly is not) don't work for everybody.

      Delete
  47. As a longtime distributor of Health Based products to dozens of Health Food Stores for well over 20 years(and 40 years involved in the Natural Health Products), I have always been amused by the notion of a product and its effectiveness being judged by how well it "works" - as opposed to a product that "doesn't work". This is, in and of itself, a rather dubious way to judge the long term effectiveness of any Nutritional Supplement or Tonic. Just exactly how does a layman or casual observer determine if a product actually "works" and what is the precise definition of this term anyway.

    Such is certainly the case with Protandim which has to rely entirely on delusional sellers and users of this deceitful product. My background in the area of dealing with dozens of formulators and manufacturers of nutritional supplements tells me that there is nothing in this product that deserve the unjustified praise and support for it. This misguided support is based entirely on ignorance of natural plant materials(generally quite cheap) and how they wind up in nutritional supplements and the true base cost of putting a few or many of these ingredients into a capsule or tablet - generally just a few cents per capsule or tablet(most often not more than 25 cents).

    I can easily determine that there is nothing in this product that can possibly justify it grossly exaggerated price - it's basic cost of manufacturing should be no more that $6 to $7, including the bottle, cap, label and product itself.

    This product was the basis of a falling out I had with one of my better customers who was aggressively promoting Protandim in one of his stores by several of his sales staff. Regardless of all the material I furnished him refuting all the so called "science" behing this stuff and that it was easily determined to be a total hoax and overpriced scam he refused to believe the material and evidence. I was very upset with him because of the deception of this fraudulent company that provided the phony evidence by this fraudulent company attesting to the effectiveness of this product.

    I was forced to drop him as a customer because I could not, on a matter of principle, do business with someone who, I felt was ripping off his customers to the tune of $50 to $60 per bottle for something that could have just as easily been sold for $10 to $20 that did precisely the same thing and provided the same benefits.

    The most laughable part of this story is that another branch of this same Health Food Store chain had several employees who had encountered the same material as I had stumbled across exposing this product as a total scam. Those employees in the other store refused to participate in the scam and would not even discuss the product with their customers and refused to even have Protandim in their store. This still would not deter the Owner from promoting Protandim since his mother had recovered from some serious health crisis and this was part of her recovery along with approximately 25 other supplements and a very strict food and raw juice regimen.

    His thinking, along with that of thousands of the distorted thought processes of delusional distributors, is almost impossible to change as I have discovered through the years with thousands of these people. I am convinced that if we were to subject the brains of these brain numbed Network Marketers to a PET Scan that we would discover a damaged portion of the higher brain centers which is defective and it would be the same damage in the same area of every one of these misguided souls. Thus their very hostile and angry response to any challenge to the integrity of whatever company they have chosen to join and support even though they are not usually making any money for all their efforts and will more than likely wind up broke in the process.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #24,

      Thanks for your fascinating perspective! Those caught up with this product are in over their heads with something that is far beyond merely being what it claims to be but is in fact a cult that gives lost people some sort of seemingly transcendent meaning they do not otherwise derive from other elements of their lives and also gives them a new family (their Protandim Family) and its attendant sense of collective purpose and shared experience. It's a veritable post-modern neo-religion!

      Delete
  48. Point well taken. Still, the arguments are weakened by the fact that no one debunking Protandim seems to have tried it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #25,

      The only argument weakened is your own... following your flawed line of logic then one cannot, for example, effectively debunk televangelistic healing without first giving it a shot. Really?

      Delete
  49. Thanks for educating others, Kim. And maintaining this blog obviously and keeping this thread active. Perhaps most telling about this (and other) MLM's is how venomous the defenders get. If you're so convinced of the magical healing powers of Protandim, you shouldn't be debating its merits on a blog, you should be out selling it to the masses! You're just wasting unimaginable sales opportunities! Seriously! Not only that, but how did you end up here?!?! A former co-worker is pushing this junk pretty hard and my search had to include 'scam' to find Kim's comprehensive collection on this blog. There are plenty of pro-Protandim sites out there, so why would you be on the prowl for a detractor if this stuff can cure so much?!?!?

    FWIW - I work in television and had the unique misfortune of doing work for Bill Gouldd's Equinox scam back in the '90's. Not field sales - they had their own satellite network and relied heavily on video for marketing. I knew absolutely nothing about the company before they flew me to Vegas for ongoing gigs. Others were brought in from L.A. and around the country. We worked 'behind the scenes' obviously and it is quite a different perspective working within a MLM outfit. There's no rejoicing in the benefits of the program, it's pushing product and ongoing inventory for most there. At least the 'Top 10 Sellers' video updates were easy…. They were always the same top 10's!!!!! And they always enjoyed posing in front of sports cars in front of either boats or McMansion's. Leased jets were a big hit too.

    Someone mentioned Donnie Osmond & Montel Williams as Protandim advocates. This is understandable - they are getting paid. In its heyday, Equinox also paid for endorsements which included Carlos Santana, Ted Danson, Senator Orrin Hatch, the entire Bridges Family (Jeff, Beau & Lloyd) and on and on.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #26,

      Thank you, likewise, for your fascinating experience with the MLM business scam model and sharing it with us. You are right that the brittleness and insecurity of Protandim's supporters is rather remarkable in light of the fact it is only a consumer product but this carries back to what I have said before about this having become a post-modern neo-religion.

      Delete
  50. Faruqi & Faruqi, LLP Launches Investigation Against Lifevantage Corporation (LFVN) For Potential Breaches Of Fiduciary Duties By Its Board Of Directors In The Manner It Seeks Executive Compensation Approval

    5:26p ET October 12, 2012 (Business Wire)
    Faruqi & Faruqi, LLP, a leading national securities firm headquartered in New York City, is investigating the Board of Directors of Lifevantage Corporation ("Lifevantage" or the "Company") (NASDAQ: LFVN) for potential breaches of fiduciary duties in connection with their conduct of seeking shareholders' approval of the compensation for the Company's named executive officers. The terms of the compensation to be awarded to the Company's executive officers are outlined in the Proxy Statement on Form Schedule 14A that Lifevantage filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on October 9, 2012.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here we go! It was only a matter of time before we saw this sort of thing start happening... and this will be but the beginning! Thanks for sharing this, Anonymous #27!

      Delete
  51. Wow. I am an RN with a critical care background so I don't consider myself uneducated. A friend of mine at work told me about this product so I told him I would do some research on it...which is how I came across this blog. I can't say that is has made me a believer OR an unbeliever. I don't, however, understand how you have spent over a year trying to argue with the people that like the product? If it's placebo, ok...it's making someone feel better and you sound like it bothers you that a pill...placebo or not... is making people feel better! So what if they spend their OWN money for a pill that you think is overpriced. Have you seen the price of prescription medication? And you don't think that has some placebo affects on people? I don't take Protandim nor do I sell it but this blog is a real turn off. I get that some people don't like MLMs. They aren't for everyone. I tried to sell Mary Kay many years ago and it wasn't for me...but I had many friends that got to stay home with their children by selling it, and I helped support them by buying it! At least the company is sharing some of the wealth by giving back money to it's distributors...unlike the CEO's of these pharmaceutical companies that are keeping it in their pockets. I'd say you've spend enough time on this argument and suggest you find something more valuable to put your energy into.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #29,

      So because pharmaceutical companies rob people with overpriced drugs that sometimes work and sometimes don't that when they do work it is of actual factual and empirical cause-effect causality and/or because the person believes it will work and thus their brain is to credit (placebo) and yet you suggest these self-same pharmaceutical companies are on a lesser moral/ethical level than the makers of Protandim which is also overpriced but has zilch/zero/zip/nada/none valid and credible scientific research supporting its claimed effectiveness all the while encouraging folks to place trust in it for their health? So medical fraud does not bother you and you are an RN?

      Your claim that I am bothered by people being benefited by a placebo is a straw-man argument: in none of my comments is that ever suggested. You are claiming I am making an argument that I am not making.

      People have never depended upon Mary Kay products to make them physically healthy or in some cases even overcome serious health issues so your attempt at creating connectivity is a major fail.

      The money you suggest LifeVantage is giving back to its distributors is lubrication to keep things running smoothly much like the money casinos dole out in the form of jackpots to keep the trap baited.

      I spent a few hours putting this article together last year and periodically answer comments people post here. I do it to be friendly and helpful and it is no trouble for me given how little of my time is required. Who are you to suggest I find something more valuable to do with my time? It seems to me that I do a small service shining light on ignorant remarks like your's.

      Delete
  52. Friendly and helpful? Are you serious? You have done nothing but verbally attack everyone that doesn't see your point of view! How is that even slightly friendly and helpful? Maybe you would gain more followers if you actually attempted to be "friendly and helpful!"

    I will clarify a few of your attacks. I never put pharmaceutical companies above or below Protandin manufacturers. I don't know enough about the company. My point was the energy you have spent attacking people that take Protandin (One pill by one manufacturer) is ridiculous.

    Here are your words quoted to rebut the other claims of mine you managed to distort...
    "Your experience with Protandin is neither proof nor science and one cannot rule out the possibility your experience is caused by your mind believing this substance will work...just be careful you are not so open-minded to new ideas that your brain falls out." (Yes...sounds like you're pretty bothered that someone is benefiting from the pills...placebo or not.)
    "MLM scam model" "Brain washing element" "To work effectively, ignorance is manditory" (These are your words about MLMs...not LifeVantage's MLM...MLMs in general. Never did I try to connect Mary Kay to Protandin....but to example that "ignorance" is not mandatory for an MLM to work "effectively."

    So as I see it, you are the one with the ignorant remarks. But if putting people down gives you your kicks...I feel sorry for you. As for me...that is all.
    Proverbs 26:4

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #29,

      You are either incredibly unintelligent and unwise or you are cynically playing the devils advocate or perhaps you are simply a contentious and argumentative person seeking attention.

      I am not friendly and helpful to contentious and ignorant people who defend the indefensible and/or attack me nor do I seek or possess "followers". Once again you intentionally distort my remarks because you have nothing useful to offer here. The people I have "attacked" made comments on my blog they chose to visit and opine upon thus begging the response from me to which they received. That you take issue with this is much more insightful about you than me.

      Your use of quotes by me is painfully clumsy and misdirected and so mentally scatter-shot that there is nothing to say in response as it makes no sense. Your mind clearly parses out certain words and phrases while ignoring and omitting others and then proceeds to interpret those selectively gleaned words and phrases to either mean what I was not saying or utterly miss the point I was making. To most effectively respond to your rebuttal would be to simply repeat what I have already said (but in ALL CAPS in a very large font so you might better understand the second time around).

      You mention all the alleged time and energy I take "attacking" people with whom you say I disagree all the while blatantly and egregiously ignoring the comments to which I was responding, comments that were either attacks on me or outrageous justifications of the product and yet you ignore "time and energy" of those people spent here. Besides, this is my blog and I can do whatever the hell I please here and nobody is forced to read anything here including you. Therefore, why are you complaining?

      I suspect that what you really want is for me to babysit you which I won't do given that you are not paying me to do so.

      B.S... er, P.S. Your Scriptural reference was in vain because you already didn't follow it had I actually been a fool and it is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle "black"!

      Delete
  53. You are a crude and hateful person. You do not have to post this...just wanted you to know. I will pray for you.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous #29,

    You have an amazing capacity for self-delusion and perception as reality. In your view I am crude and hateful because I deign to disagree with you and I have the temerity to call you on your shit. The Universe sees things different and recognizes you are the intellectually crude and socially hateful one in this story. Given how you are your prayers will not get higher than the ceiling.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Oh wow! A friend of mine is trying to talk me into Protandim. She usually compelling Qs and statements like "How much value can you place on your health?" and also "If you don't want to feel better that's up to you."
    She also comes back at me with "why would Warren Buffet or Donald trump be invested in this?" or "Why would they teach about it at Harvard?"
    Really, is this mentioned anywhere in their literature?
    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #30,

      What you describe are catchphrases they are trained to toss around.
      These people are pimps but they aren't even pimping a drug but merely an herbal remedy which has endured far less peer-reviewed scientific scrutiny as any drug produced by "Big Pharma". Big Pharma is pushing drugs with actual medicinal value in some cases whereas Protandim pushers are one ore more orders of magnitude down the food chain and what they sell is even less reliable.

      Delete
  56. I have read most of the negative info online about Protandim. I only got into it because a friend who I respect and he is not a MLMer is so sold on it. I started taking it Sept. 19th. It reduced my arthritic pain substantially and has given me a lot more energy. I don't have to watch video testimonials because I know it works. I don't care about being a distributor but I know the product works for me. My wife loves the cream and says it works on her face. Unless you try this stuff you don't know squat.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I tried Protandim for four months.....so that means I know squat, right? I tried it to see if it would lower my blood pressure and/or cholesterol (both levels were high, and no, I'm not overweight). Sure enough, my blood pressure went down right away and I was very pleased. A few months went by and all was well, but the distributor who sold me on the stuff kept making more and more outrageous claims about what a scientific breakthrough it is, and how many conditions it could treat. My scam radar was activated and I started looking into the company and the "science" behind the product.

      The first tip off was finding out about the lie that Joe McCord invented it. Just look at the patent....he's not on it. Lifevantage told that lie for years....and McCord went along with it. Eventually they had to back peddle and change their wording in the advertising and stop referring to him as the inventor. They changed it to the "formulator" and since even that was proven untrue, they started calling him "the man behind Protandim", or the scientist who validated Protandim.

      You don't care who invented it, as long as it works? Well, no one has proven that it works. Lifevantage certainly has not proven anything. Protandim is just like all the other miracle products out there. They have thrown in some mouse, rat, and test tube studies to try and fool the gullible, but that doesn't pass muster with real scientists.

      The lie about who invented it isn't the only lie they've told. Paul Myhill was caught lying about a researcher at UMN saying that Protandim was a "killer application" for diabetes. I'm the one who contacted that researcher (Dr. Hering) and he absolutely denied saying that. Within a few days, Myhill's blog with that quote disappeared (screen shots of that blog have been saved). If Protandim is such a scientific breakthrough, why do they have to lie about anything? There are many other lies and deceptions to be found also, and they are well documented on the Lazymanandmoney site, whether you like it or not.

      But wait, my blood pressure went down when I took Protandim...isn't that proof enough that it works? Nope. I stopped taking the product when my scam radar kicked in, and guess what? My blood pressure didn't shoot back up and has been fine ever since. The placebo effect must have caused the initial drop, and I've maintained a healthy blood pressure through stress reduction and exercise.

      Arguing with a distributor about the product is fruitless because they have been so indoctrinated by the company that it is like talking to a cult member. No matter what evidence you show them, they will not believe it. I've pointed out verifiable lie after lie, and the distributor would not budge. They don't want to know the truth.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous #31,

      There are quite a number of people here who have tried it and know squat about it and they curse it. What is your response to them?

      BTW, I have never tried crack or ice or meth but I know they won't do me any good. I have also never tried any of those herbal remedies to make my dick bigger but I already know they won't work. One does not have to attempt every fool thing on earth to know anything about anything.

      With that being said I'm glad this product works for you (placebo or not) assuming you are not a Protandim sockpuppet which I'm not.

      Delete
  57. I want to add to my above comment from December 1, 2012. I would really like a rational discussion. Neither the naysayers nor the fanboys. Let's quit the criticism either for and against and rationally leave comments that are constructive. It's hard to get a handle on this with some leaving comments that are so negative and others who are in the high heavens on this product. First, point me to the evidence that this is a farce---evidence not comments such as the "placebo" effect speculation. Second, what evidence is available that this works---forget all the "scientific facts" but let's talk about things such as when someone started taking it, changes noticed when, are you a distributor, etc... let's try and rule out whether this is because of the "placebo" effect. Like I said in my previous email... I started taking it Sept 19th and I have noticed changes which I can not attribute to anything else and I was not expecting changes especially the arthritic changes because my friend only told me that he felt he was sleeping better. The pain issue was never discussed so it wasn't expected to decrease. Anyway, looking for some evidence either way. I don't like MLM because in the end only a few really make money but if the product works I don't care how they market it. Dave Perkins

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You want "evidence", but not "scientific facts"? Not possible. The only evidence which matters are double blind, placebo controlled studies. The only such study done to date is the odd study McCord did on alcoholics which showed a greater reduction in oxidative stress in the group taking the placebo.

      There is plenty of evidence Lifevantage is a farce.....starting with the lies the company told about who invented it. It is all well documented:
      http://www.protandimscams.com/lifevantage-bribes-paul-myhill-to-hide-the-truth-about-protandim/

      If they had a "scientific breakthrough" as they claim, they would do the studies to prove it.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous #31 a.k.a. Dave Perkins,

      Thanks for following up and elaborating and for giving us your name. I have much more respect for those who do not hide behind "anonymous". The evidence this is a farce is outlined in my original blog post. The very origin and genesis and evolution of this product and those associated with it is most farcical by any reasonable standard. I have never heard of a respectable doctor who did not invent something allow a majority of the cult following of this product believe he did and be involved in training marketers of the product and claim there are outside peer-reviewed studies when there are not and on and on the list goes.

      Delete
  58. Once more comment...whether we like it or not Protandim is going to take off...there are too many high profile people who are getting into this e.g. Tim Tebow (his parents have been taking it for some time), local newscasters etc. That is why I would like a rationale discussion. The other kinds won't work. Anyone can put a website and say anything so unless this gains some credibility it won't past muster. Dave Perkins

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is plenty of rational discussion here, Dave, it's just not what you want to hear. When you make statements like above, it sounds like you are either a distributor, or soon will be. Tim Tebow's parents and "local newscasters" are high profile and will cause Protandim to "take off"? No, what would make it take off would be double blind, placebo controlled studies. Until that happens, it is Lifevantage with the credibility problem. They have an uphill battle in that department since they have already been caught lying.

      Delete
    2. Scientology has a way more impressive list of celebrity endorsers and followers...... and so your point being what? Is scientology more legit that Protandim?

      Delete
  59. If I was on Protandim and had all of these wellness benefits from such a product this is what I would do to convince people. I would provide the blogger with my personal details; medical records and my doctors contact details and credentials. Some distributors may be concerned about the privacy issues doing this but out of all the thousands (literally) of posts by distributors on websites such as this it seems as though not one has done it. Unfortunately I am not having wellness benefits from this product but if I did I would not hesitate in handing over my details. Once a few distributers have done this then it would probably put a stop to theses anti Protandim blogs once and for all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #32,

      Hell will freeze over first....

      Delete
  60. i tried my first bottle a month ago and suffered from stomach cramps and diarrhea. The person who sold it to me said to take it on a full stomach; which I did. The next suggestion was take another bottle and give it another month. Then I get an email with a recall for the product because there are "metal pieces" in certain batches. Now my problem is they won't refund my money. They just want me to reply that I have destroyed the pills. What's up with this ripoff?????

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #33,

      There is an old Roman saying... and I paraphrase of course: "The cure is worse than the disease".

      Delete
  61. I have been taking Protandim for several months. Have had some good health experiences.... liver spots fading, minor arthritis pain gone. But I take other herbal supplements.... esp 1/4 tsp turmeric a day and a seaweed mixture.... so I can't attribute my results fully to Protandim. I'm also a distributor.
    Recently one of my new recruits ended up in the emergency ward (twice) which he attributed to use of Protandim. Also a friend in Colorado got deathly ill, after using the product to great effect for several months. Tiny metal fragments would not cause these medical emergencies. Fungal contamination or rodent infestation of the herb storage could.
    Anyone have any other info about the product recall?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #34,

      I doubt we will hear much about any recall given how these people operate... again I'm reminded of "the cure is worse than the disease" but then that is often true of drugs produced by Big Pharma. However, at least with those there is much more oversight unlike with herbal remedies.

      Delete
  62. Fascinating - esp. the trolls. And I thought they mostly stuck with E online or Yahoo news.
    My only complaint is the characterization about MSNBC - it's not in any way similar to Fox News. Studies (actual scholarly studies) have shown that Fox viewers are the most uninformed/misinformed of any demographic. That's not true of MSNBC - they actually show news stories, and not just opinions all day long.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #35,

      There is an old saying that goes: "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" which is why I watch (when the opportunity rears it's ugly head as I don't have TV myself) both Faux News and MSNBC. From watching both I fail to see the differentiation you describe... BOTH have some news and a lot more talking headery. If anything as much as it pains me to say Faux seems more prone to having guests on who are NOT for the home team to amplify the echo chamber effect. Although both do that MSNBC is so much more brazen and shameless about it to the point of it being painful to watch at times.

      I'd be interested to know who does those scholarly studies and what they motive is in conducting them. Given the leftist bent of the Ivory Halls of Academia I am naturally suspicious of any scholarly treatise that would affirm the smug notions that Leftists often entertain of themselves being the intellectual and educational superiors of anybody who might conceivably disagree with them and that head knowledge always trumps "horse wisdom/street savvy".

      Delete
    2. "Horse sense" I meant to say...

      Delete
  63. From all that I have read here and else where, I am convinced this product is not for me. I may however, look into adding some of the supplements to my diet seperately as it looks like that is much more cost effective with none of the shady distribution. Thanks for all the info and links.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Out of Her Head,

      Thanks for stopping by and I'm glad we could help. Nothing beats a healthy diet and exercise regime and consistent good sleep as part of a healthy lifestyle not to mention regular medical exams, a positive mental-emotional outlook and perhaps some diet supplements for anything your food does not provide you enough of and you can add to that herbal supplements as well to get you more enzymes and other helpful substances.

      Delete
  64. TESTIMONIAL:

    I was sold a bill of goods as to the "positive effects" that Protandim would bring to my lifestyle... ridding the anti-oxidants from my system. Well, I can personally tell you that this product - PROTANDIM - did in fact change my lifestyle and not for the better. After a month or so of taking the product I began to experience irregular bowel movements and an occasional "bowel accidents;" which I attributed to my age of 64 or just getting on in years. I had an annual physical appointment scheduled with my doctor and I took all my vitamins and a bottle of Protandim with me - everything that I was taking as a supplement to my normal diet. The doctor asked when I started experiencing the irregular bowel movements? I thought and I answered about a month after starting to take Protandim. She, my doctor, recommended I stop taking all my supplements immediately. Which I did. She then said after 30 days resume my regular routine that I had been taking BEFORE Protandim. I did just that. It took about two weeks and I lost that irritable bowel and accidental bowel movement condition. The only thing I changed over a 90 day period was to stop taking Protandim. One of minor intelligence would deduce that huh, Protandim may be the source of my previous problem. I started asking other friends who I knew had purchased the product from this friend and lo-and-behold they both had experienced exactly the same type of bowel irritation -- both had ceased to take Protandim on their own. Now, in the meantime, I had accumulated some 6 bottles of Protandim and have since canceled my "automatic shipment" from LifeVantage leaving me with 6 bottles of this "Un-wonder drug." I then received a RECALL NOTICE FROM LIFEVANTANGE to stop taking the recalled dates and destroy the recalled items. Destroy the evidence? I immediately contacted my seller and LifeVantage and asked for a refund of all the unused items, 6 full bottles. NO WAY ARE THEY GOING TO GIVE MY MONEY BACK ON A DEFECTIVE ITEM. Now they only want to replace the defective items with more of the same non-working wonder drug that severely caused me discomfort for many months... NO THANK YOU LifeVantage and your un-wonder drug - Prodtandim. I WOULD STRONGLY SUGGEST if you are taking Protandim to STOP. I would also suggest that if you have any affiliation with this less than honorable company to STOP DEALLING WITH THEM or ANYONE ASSOCIATED WITH LIFEVANTAGE and PROTANDIM.

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    1. Anonymous #36,

      Thanks for sharing your rather disturbing story. Your own experience with this is rather illuminating. That anti-oxidants need to be neutralized cannot be disputed but there are many kinds of hazards to our bodies and we need to address our health in an all-encompassing sort of way and these Protandim People have a one-track mind about anti-oxidants in a sort of Molecular McCarthyism.

      Delete
  65. Here is something I wrote on another website when the topic of using Protandim for pets came up:

    As for animals taking Protandim, I was told by a distributor that it “works in all mammals” and I should try it for my horse. Now, common sense should tell you that a claim of something working in all mammals is ridiculous. One animal does not necessarily metabolize something the same as another. Try giving chocolate to a dog (No, DON'T....it's poisonous to dogs!).

    I knew that a horse’s digestive system was vastly different than a human’s (can you survive on eating hay?). For example, I was trying to treat my horse for ulcers and found out that even though the medication used in horses is the same as for humans, the delivery system had to be different because of the strong acids in an equine’s stomach. The medicine would be completely destroyed if just fed to the horse in the pill form used for humans.

    Then, of course, is the pesky lack of actual scientific proof that Protandim could provide a measurable health benefit for ANY animal (or human, for that matter).

    I actually contacted a researcher at Rutgers (Dr. Carey Williams) who does antioxidant research on horses because this Protandim distributor would not listen to me (since I am not a scientist). The researcher wrote back, absolutely agreed with my assessment and gave examples of how they had tried some experiments on horses with products which seemed promising in other animals, but when given to horses, had no result, or even had a detrimental result. You can’t assume a product will have the same results in different species.

    I shared the researcher’s comments with the distributor, but it fell on deaf ears. She at first said the researcher didn’t know what she was talking about and wasn’t published. I sent her a list of published research papers. Then she said she meant the papers weren’t on PubMed.

    Wrong again….I sent her the links to PubMed where the research could be found. Then we were just back to “the researcher just doesn’t understand what Protandim does”. Ummm ….yeah, a highly respected researcher at Rutgers just doesn’t understand.

    I’d also like to point out that a video of a horse seeming to improve after being given Protandim (like the video being touted by Lifevantage distributors) can be very misleading. I’ve seen horses with severe arthritis act very differently depending on the time of day (excitement just prior to being fed), the weather conditions (more frisky when it’s windy), etc.

    Sometimes they seem like they can barely move, and other times they amaze you by running around. There is also the expectations of the owner, and the placebo effect. Because the owner is expecting a result, and they are hopeful something will help their animal, they are inclined to see a result. So in a way, it is the placebo effect working on the owner. I’ve seen it many, many times.

    There is a HUGE supplement market for horses. I’ve seen owners rave about one supplement or another and how much better their horse is…….but when I observe the animal, I don’t see any improvement at all.

    So in short, until there is credible research (and considering the track record of Lifevantage, I don’t expect any will be forthcoming), I wouldn’t waste my money.

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  66. How can companies like this market and sell something that can be potentially harmful to our pets with little to no oversight? This is absolutely shocking and I would like to know who I can contact to voice my concerns and complaints. This is unreal...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #37,

      The system is so big now that it is quite unwieldy and things can and do slip through the cracks (or chasms as the case may be). That is how Chinese malamine-contaminated products got into our country. There aren't enough watchers watching and the marketplace evolves faster than the regulators can adapt. Talk to your state and federal representatives and contact the FDA and other federal regulatory agencies as the more complaints that come in the more likely something will be done by the watchers.

      Delete
  67. I've got distant family selling Protandim. A friend of hers commented about thyroid pill issues she was having on Facebook. This family "dealer" told this woman to STOP taking the thyroid pills and Protandim would would fix her right up.

    WHAT!!! The woman had a thyroid removal. She absolutely needs thyroid pills. She can't live without them. MLM Kool-Aid. The liquid lobotomy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #38,

      This Protandim thing for a lot of these people is a sort of faith-healing revival circuit. All they need is a big tent and Elmer Gantry to show up holding a bottle of this stuff in his hand.

      Delete
  68. If you are looking for info on Protandim. Please!!!! Be careful!!! DO NOT FOLLOW MEDICAL INSTRUCTIONS FROM A SELLER!!! This people just want to make money!!! They will tell you that you don't need to eat healthy anymore, you don't need to exercise anymore, because this "miracle" pill will be all you need. DO NOT BELIEVE THEM PLEASE! I am not saying that Protandim can be beneficial for you, but there are different options out there as well! Protandim is just one of them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous #39,

      I, too, don't dispute that perhaps for some people Protandim could quite conceivably do them some good. Thalidomide can be good for some people AND cause horrible birth defects for gestating babies. Like with a FDA-approved Big Pharma drug there can be both positive and negative effects for some of these herbal supplements... aside from the thoroughly worthless ones that can't do anything at all. However, at least there is more oversight with the Big Pharma stuff but these herbal remedies are so under-researched or unresearched there is a degree of playing Russian Roulette when taking them and to a greater degree than with FDA-regulated substances. And any product claiming to take the place of a healthy diet and exercise regime has exposed itself as a fraud.

      Delete
  69. Wow, reading all these comments is very interesting. As I pointed out to my son (who is in middle management of a corporation) and who scolded me about being in an MLM; if you really slow down, take the emotion out of all this and use one's brain, all businesses are MLM’s. Just look at their corporate flow charts. There is one guy at the top and the tree gets wider at the bottom, with most being pee-ons’ at the bottom making the least money.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. LOL....."Eagle".....are you serious?

      A business organizational chart is shaped like a pyramid, therefore all businesses are MLM's?? You could learn something from your son.

      Here is a great article which spells it out for you:
      http://www.thesmallcompanyblog.com/TheBlog/2009/02/9-signs-youre-involved-in-a-pyramid-scheme/

      I'll copy number 9 for you:

      "Sign #9: They Spend More Time Training You How to Recruit Than How to Sell Products.
      Contrary to the Network Marketing-based claim that “all businesses are pyramid schemes,” there isn’t one legitimate company that requires new employees to immediately begin searching for five replacements for themselves. But this is exactly what MLM companies do. MLM owners know that the shelf life of a single recruit is less than a year, so the focus becomes building the network first, and selling the products later. Worst-case, you and the people you recruit make the minimum investment in ’starter products,’ and the pyramid pulls in thousands of dollars without you ever making a legitimate sale."


      Delete
    2. The Eagle,

      Your analogy of an MLM to the pyramid structure of just about any human endeavor does not hold water. Where MLM's stand out from the crowd is not in their pyramid structure but rather in other areas which are nicely covered in this quote from Wikipedia:

      "MLM companies have been a frequent subject of criticism as well as the target of lawsuits. Criticism has focused on their similarity to illegal pyramid schemes, price fixing of products, high initial entry costs (for marketing kit and first products), emphasis on recruitment of others over actual sales, encouraging if not requiring members to purchase and use the company's products, exploitation of personal relationships as both sales and recruiting targets, complex and sometimes exaggerated compensation schemes, the company making major money off its training events and materials, and cult-like techniques which some groups use to enhance their members' enthusiasm and devotion"

      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing

      Delete
  70. Here's another nugget. LV makes a huge deal out of the magical synergistic properties in Protandim....after all, it's Patented!

    But wait a minute, they had to leave out an ingredient in order to meet new regulations in Japan (where 28% of LV's revenue comes from)!

    If the exact combination of ingredients is so important, how can they alter the product for Japan? Also, how is it that they are marketing and selling the product in Japan while the study of the new formula is still underway?

    http://globenewswire.com/news-release/2013/01/14/516236/10017975/en/LifeVantage-Launches-Protandim-the-Nrf2-Synergizer-in-Japan.html

    “Internally directed research and development programs have enabled LifeVantage to produce a formulation of Protandim for the Japanese market that meets recently enacted local regulatory requirements. “As part of our ongoing Global R&D program at LifeVantage we conducted a proprietary cell bioassay test that allowed us to identify an ideal formula for Japan that causes significant Nrf2 activation,” said LifeVantage Chief Science Officer Dr. Darlene Walley. The formulation being distributed in Japan is the subject of a placebo controlled, double blind clinical study being conducted at Colorado State University. Preliminary data from that study show the product to be a potent oxidative stress reducer.”

    I also like how they had to invent a new method of "testing" for this formula....I guess the established methods weren't working out for them.

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    1. I smell a rat... thanks for finding this, LisaRob.

      Delete
  71. My niece was in a severe car accident 7 months ago...CPR was performed at the scene. It is unknown how long she was without oxygen. After many weeks in ICU, she was transferred to a Rehabilitation Center and has not yet been released. The medical staff havesounds been disappointed at the rate of recovery... up until 2 weeks ago, that is. In desperation we put her on Protandim, on her 6th day she was making twice as many sound and attempting continuously to raise herself. Now 2 weeks on Protandim and so much more active . This is hardly a placebo effect for someone who is unaware of their surroundings. I had a dark spot on my forehead that progressively grew in size over the years. ..on Protandim and their Tru Science moisturizer for 6.5 weeks that spot is so faint you could hardly see it. My 80 yr old mom had hip pain keeping her up every night for months. .. after 6 days on protandim the pain is gone and hasn't returned. We could have returned the product after 30 days, if we didn't like it. As for me and my family, we feel that this is God sent! We have read all the negative reviews but so glad we dismissed them. Thousands of people die from medications every year. ..yet people run to get their prescriptions filled without fear of possible side effects from synthetics. This is a natural product consisting of 5 God given botanicals. .. noone has died on Protandim! I would rather be on a supplement over meds, anyday...hands down! I thank God... through him all things are possible! God bless you all!

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Anonymous #40,

      My bullshit alarm is going off here on this one. Sorry, but your diction and your narrative are so over-the-top and one-dimensional that I cannot shake the idea you are a sockpuppet for Protandim.

      What kind of rehab center would allow this untested product be used on a patient... someone who is probably on meds provided by the center and thus would be subject to undesirable reactions? For something supposedly so natural this thing sure is rather industrial!
      Why keep yourself anonymous?

      STOP mentioning God in something to which God wants no part - LifeVantage is all about making money and the love of money is the root of all evil according to God.

      Delete
    2. to anonymous,you are lying just because you are a blind support.plz do not give wrong information to people.i prey to god for your niece to get well soon.

      Delete
  72. Yes......it cures EVERYTHING!!! Who needs doctors and scientifically proven medications? Just take Protandim and pray. Ummm.....better pray A LOT.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If one is praying to God while trusting in Protandim then one is in the sin of idolatry by way of trusting in false gods and serving them and serving the god of money and thus one's prayers won't get any higher than the ceiling above.

      Delete
  73. hi everyone.why you all fighting for this useless product.those who supports this product are either dumb or illiterate or cheater or innocent.again those who are using this will review good for this useless product just to satisfy self.why it is in mlm not is store? because the company do not want to take risk.so the company involved you all cowards to do the business for them.last but not the list,what makes this product special? nothing.all the ingredients are cheap and easily available anywhere.i does not mean to say that cheap and easily available things are not effective.one ingredient is Withania somnifera,it is good as well as cheap,but nothing to do with aging process.it may raise your thyroid level(hormone) and can cause auto immune thyroid problem. remember aging is related to hormone.so physical exercise,enough sleep,cardiovascular exercise,enough water intake,avoiding junk food,good fats(pufa),leafy vegetables etc helps to slow down aging process.nothing other can help you untill some new research burst.

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    1. Despite the language barrier what you said was actually incredibly astute and insightful and all of us would do well to follow it. We all need to live correctly and that in and of itself is far more effective not to mention less expensive than becoming Protandim whores.

      Delete
  74. The fact is everyone who is tired, hurt, financially insecure and just desperate for something better is who Protandim people seek out.Fact- distributers have to buy a supply each month. Now they can take it ,store it, or move it through high pressure tactics on mainly friends and family first then anyone you see regularly- you name it. Everyone I know selling this is a zombie- they regurgitate the same things over and over again and appear to be robotic. You sneeze- Protandim, you cough- Protandim, tired-Protandim... MLM people are pathetic in their over zealous unfounded enthusiasm- just look at some of there videos- cult like (cheering, holding hands, waving lights. Fact a prolevel 9 distributer states only 1% will make prolevel 5- making $3000 per month- so much for retiring on the beach! All the while you are now working two jobs leaving family and children behind to organize meetings and get your DOWNLINE going just to make ends meet. dont believe me look up Kirby Zenger COO of Protandim? Lifevantage on YouTube- in his speach he says "youll be making pennys the first couple of years saying my family needs me more than this." What about the other 99%- you just got duped into thinking by bugging everyone you know and alienating all those who dont share your enthusiam for this WONDER PILL youll be rich. Congrats there goes your $600-$1000 for your distributership. You really think they care about helping people- its all about the downline-PERIOD!!!! How many of those pro 9 or Pro 10 people you listen to like tele-evangelists on stage at your sales meetings made there money by going door to door trying to help people with their health one bottle at a time? NONE!!! Distibuters, Distibuters, Distributers= DOWNLINE. They don't care about the individual, they want people to be distributers and get ten more and they get ten more till there is a large Pyramid- OOPS! Multilevel Market- OOPS! Direct Market boosting them higher and higher. Tele-evangelists are proof if your desparate anyone can be healed even if it is snakeoil! Donny Osmond LOL!!! Sure why not the company is based out of Utah and is run mainly by Mormons- OOPS! Laterday Saints. Donny is the poster child for them. Know this- save your money! If your a hypochondriac and you think this will cure EVERYTHING- buy it seperately online for a fraction of the cost! Dont believe their proprietary blend BS! Did you ever make a cake and put the ingredients in the bowl in a different order before blending- egg first, egg last- DOESNT MATTER! It only matters to them because you wont buy it and become their downline. This is all about MONEY PERIOD! I have heard with my own ears a "friend" who is in a top level position say to a lower level "just make them think you care about them and you'll do great in this business!" Made me sick! But dont enter into this greed filled world that separates friends and family and turns you into a pushy pill promoter who robotically says and believes anything this company spews! They propagate lies! Just do this- check their original patent-Joe McCord is not even listed- you know the Guru of Oxidative Stress and Chief Science officer- OOPS! Im sorry hes been replaced with a new Woman the Company hasnt said "invented Protandim"- hummmm? The lies start there and if you cant even believe them as to who made or developed it, can you trust their claims on anything else? Once a Liar always a Liar! Stay home, play with your kids, get a job you dont have to bug everyone you know, buy the ingredients online, be satisfied with your life, realize there is no pill that cures everything, Greed is a poison, money is not the root of happiness, and "dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see!" Remember 99% of you trying this will spin your wheels loose precious time and never find financial freedom. But then again just wait when this is being sold on Walmart shelves like Monavie- I mean Acai Juice you can be part of the top Guys downline on the next big thing.

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    1. Hear! Hear! Well-stated! I find it most odious that they encourage their sales reps to manipulate their families and friends and I find it repulsive that so many people are willing to go along with it. These are truly broken people at the bottom and nihilistic people at the top. This is all about making money and that is clear in their own advertising propaganda.

      Delete
  75. I had the misfortune of going to a presentation for Protandim last week. First let me note that I was tricked into going by a shady character I met through my parents who told me I was going to meet a doctor who was looking for an assistant and he would put in a good word for me so that I would be able to at least get an interview. I thought that I was going to be at some kind of medical lecture, having worked for doctors in the past those things are usually pretty over my head but somewhat interesting. As soon as I entered the room I knew that wasn't the case. People started approaching me by saying what an amazing opportunity I was about to be introduced to and how lucky I was to be there. This is not how people talk before medical lectures.

    I was then subjected to almost 2 hours of non-stop blathering about how Protandim was the world's greatest miracle drug and would stop aging as we know it and we'd all start living to 130 years old. Oh, and we'd get fabulously rich by just sitting on our butts doing nothing. There were pictures drawn and charts...lots and lots of charts...and the lying weasel I came with was actually copying all this on a notepad! What a maroon! And let me not forget SYNERGY! Yes, the word synergy was used a lot but without any meaningful context, as if it were just a word that came out of the "Dynamic Words To Sell Useless Stuff To Dumb People" dictionary. For example "All you need to do is sign up 5 people and before long that network is bringing you an income of $200,000 a year! And you know what that is? It's SYNERGY!"

    Anyway, it was all a tremendous waste of my time for nothing. I fear for those who would actually fall for this scam! Imagine forsaking medicine to take an overpriced vitamin instead. Save your money - these Lifevantage folks are bad news!

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    1. I have noticed the same pattern with this Protandim Cult.... it is so illegitimate that it compulsively and rampantly relies upon deceit and guile in order to acquire news suckers, er.... converts, er.... customers. Also, any business where the key to marketing it is not selling the product so much as finding new people to sell it for you is got something very wrong going on with it.

      Delete
  76. Is it Protandim?

    My wife has a sister who has eight children, ages 40-57. The sister had a stroke four years ago, is confined to a wheelchair, and cannot talk. Her husband cares for her around the clock, and we frequently assist him with maintenance on their house and medical equipment.

    About a year and a half ago, the husband informed me that a couple of his kids were into Protandim. He integrated part of the sales pitch and informed us that he was taking it. I'm healthy,so I dismissed it.

    About a year ago, their youngest son called us and said that he wanted to have a meeting with our family. We assumed this was an important family meeting, as the children don't visit often. The Protandim kid came bounding into the house,hooked up his computer and within minutes we were watching a Protandim pitch. I was upset. I was 77 years old at the time. I have been exposed to MLM schemes all the way back to Koscot in 1967. I informed him that I was in perfect health, and that I was not the least bit interested. He got on the phone and called the "heavy", who tried to convince me that this stuff is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I told him I was not interested.I was very upset that the son had used false pretense to get us over to the house. At that point in time I became "the enemy." I was not going to buy the message.

    Five of the eight children live within a three hours drive of the parent’s house, and two live seven hours away. Since the stroke, there have been very few visits to their poor father and mother. However,two of the sons had resources and time to go to a Protandim meeting in Salt Lake City. In April, their mother was hospitalized twice within about ten days. There were new medical problems to deal with, and the father was burdened with many new requirements for her care. I called one of the other sons. This one is a Protandim user and is a graduate-degreed professional. I told him that his father was overwhelmed, was making irrational decisions, and needed help. He informed me that he had full faith in his father, who knew more than the doctors or hospital, and was not going to get involved.

    Our son lives near here and was very familiar with the situation. He saw that we were being asked to do unreasonable and illogical things and sent an e-mail message to the children. The message was simply, "Your father is overwhelmed and needs your help." Then, all hell broke loose. He received e-mails from two Protandim-ingesting sons with lies in them and said that we have nothing to do with her care and that we haven't really helped anyway. We got a call from the son who had made the Protandim pitch. He uninvited us from my sister-in-law's birthday party. We phoned another son, who I don’t believe was involved in all of this, and explained that this was my wife’s sister and it might be her last birthday. He got us re-invited to the party.

    We walked into the party, were snubbed immediately, and discovered that the father had been told about our effort to get him help. This was a very insensitive thing for the children to do and showed no common sense. After attending the party for about an hour, the father aggressively rose up, and screamed that he did not ever want to see us again.

    We were upset and just could not reason as to why we were being treated the way we were and then I asked myself the question: "Could it be the Protandim." Research on the Internet revealed that other people had seen strange behavior in people taking Protandim. Could it be the chemical or the sales psychology that causes this behavior? Were we the "devil" because we accused the Protandim-taking father of being ill or overwhelmed? This stuff is supposed to cure everything.

    I am now asking this question. Have you seen personality changes in people or bizarre behavior in someone after taking Protandim? Have you been treated badly after not buying the pitch from friends or relatives? Please blog your story.

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    1. The behavior your describe is rather typical of cult members and the Protandim movement is clearly more than merely fan-dom for a mere unproven herbal "remedy" but is tantamount to a religious revival cult. Cults are about control and about making money for the few at the top of the food chain, er.... pyramid scheme, er.... the management structure. The Protandim Movement clearly qualifies as a cult on BOTH counts.

      Delete
  77. Yes. I no longer have a sister because of this company and the cult like tactics they employ. "If your not with us, you're against us" attitude. She irrationality believed everything the company told her, and if you presented information to the contrary......well, you became the enemy, and all manner of insults were hurled at you. It is a MLM cult, pure and simple.

    Sorry to hear of your family's experience.

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    1. I'm so sorry to hear that and you have my sympathies. Your zeal in outing this crazy little cult now makes more sense to me and thanks for your contributions! Why don't you start your own blog devoted to this endeavor of outing LifeVantage and their Protandim product line? I say this not to discourage your postings here which I hope will continue but I mean in addition to what you do here.

      Delete
  78. This produc was originally sold in stores but did not do as well as hoped because the stores employees did not know enough about it, so it became just another supplement on the shelf like the rest. It makes sense to sell it like they have been with people who are very knowledgeableabout it and can concentrate on just trying to sell one product rather than multiple products. Words also were misconstrued by myehill. The inventors were not salesmen or marketing geniuses. This is why there was confusion as to who invented it. They did not have a p.r. person. We are all human and make mistakes. This product is legitimate. I hope you understand that
    also they do not want it to be classified as a "drug" because of the amount of money it would take. They would have to up the price and they want to keep it low. Everybody wins

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    1. Anonymous:

      If you don't want to be duped out of $50 a month, you need to take an honest, objective look at this product and the company that sells it.

      Paul Myhill and Bill Driscoll were not confused about who invented it. They lied about it. It really is that simple.

      Myhill actually has a MBA in marketing. It wasn't selling in GNC because there wasn't anyone being paid to make outrageous and unsubstantiated miracle health claims about it.

      It can't be classified as a drug because it hasn't been scientifically shown to actually DO anything in humans. The price is not low for this unproven curry pill. It is a few pennies of herbs being sold for $1.50 a pill. There is no magic synergistic formula....how could they have left out one of the ingredients for the Japanese market if their formula is so special?

      Also, this "science based company" spent a piddly $2.5 million on research over a four year period, yet are in the process of doing a $50 million stock buyback. This shows you that science really is not a priority.

      Don't be fooled by the testimonials, test tube and rat studies. Double blind, placebo controlled studies on humans are what is needed to show that a product actually works. Lifevantage doesn't do this research because they know the results would not be favorable for them. The only human study done on Protandim which had a placebo control was an utter failure for Protandim. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

      Again, do some honest research into this......or, if you really don't care, go ahead and spend $50 a month to support the lavish lifestyles of the scum at the top of the pyramid. Your call.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous #48,

      Actually, YOU are confused on the facts of the creation story for Protandim/LifeVantage. Also, your logic regrading why Protandim didn't sell well in stores like GNC just doesn't wash. Were that the case then they couldn't sell a lot or most of the rest of the stuff for which they are purveyors. Nice try, but you need to rethink everything you believe because your thinking is faulty all around.

      Delete
    3. It's all about proper training and the trainees ability to retain information. GNC is a retailer just like any other retailer with a range of employees that either know their shit, know enough to get by, or don't know anything at all. I worked in the cosmetics department at a Walgreens for 2 years as my first job when I was a teenager. I didn't really know anything about any of the hundreds of brands and products we carried except which ones were affordable and which ones I happened to like based on how they made my hair/skin look or feel. I couldn't begin to tell anyone why whatever products I used worked for me, I just knew they worked for me. Yet they expected me to make big cosmetics sales. I now work for a Lush Handmade Cosmetics where I have been extensively trained on products and ingredients. ANYWAY, let me stop rambling and get to the point of my reply: GNC has tons of different products, just like Lush has tons of different products, so there are bound to be products that staff focus more on selling than others based on any number of reasons. I am knowledgable about all the products that Lush carries, but I've certainly been guilty of what we call "cherry picking" where I show customers only products I use and like, or only best sellers (usually only if they ask "what are your best sellers?") or if something is or has been moved somewhere I can't easily spot it, sometimes I forget we have that product...oops. That being said it is easier for me to sell Lush cosmetics over a slew of different brands of cosmetics at a Walgreens because I am specifically trained on what products are for what and what ingredients do what in Lush products. So I can see how a little bitty bottle of Protandim could be forgotten in a sea of supplements.

      Last night I was taken to a Lifevantage meeting. All my talk about the extensive amount of product training I got at Lush and another comment I saw on this thread did bring to my attention something I didn't notice while I was attending this meeting. It was all about signing up and recruiting instead of the product itself and how to sell it. There was a small amount of time spent talking about what the product is meant to do, but not what makes it do these things . And I thought "Well this is a meeting for people who already work for the company, they already know what's in this stuff and what it does..." However, a couple times a year Lush has training sessions to teach us about new products we are launching or new changes to the selling cycle or whatever. Sometimes these training sessions can feel redundant, but I have to keep in mind that what is a refresher for me, unless it's new product training, is brand new information for new hires. So, because distributors bring in new people with them, why don't the Lifevantage people go over ingredients and what they do and why they use them, where it comes from, etc.

      I can't say I'm grateful that my hope for a brighter future and financial freedom has been shattered. I wanted more than anything to climb out from under the crippling debt of student loans and the possibility of working for a meager hourly wage at multiple retail establishments and for a few hours I really thought becoming a Lifevantage distributor was going to be my way out. I was nearly duped, but the veil has been lifted before it was too late. But now I'm right back where I started. Miserable and without hope, living pay check to pay check. At least I'm saving myself $700. Oh yeah, just want to put that out there: It costs 700 fucking dollars to become a distributor.

      Please excuse my language and any poor spelling or grammar. It's nearly 3am and I am exhausted.
      -Amy

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    4. Amy,

      The thing is an obvious scam in its very structure and execution and that is as plain as the nose on anybody's own face. The #1 focus is money which manifested in recruitment being even more important than the product itself and "financial independence" being emphasized over physical health all the while they cannot demonstrate their product delivers either of those things.

      Kimmer

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  79. Excuse me, I meant "the possibility of working for a meager hourly wage at multiple retail establishments for the rest of my life."

    Really, unless you're already really well off and/or really good at manipulating people and don't care that you're screwing vulnerable people out of their hard earned dollars, then steer clear of MLMs.

    Lifevantage distributors, I know you think you're helping people. I know all you want is to lead people to a better life and better health, but asking someone to hawk up $700 for the smallest possibility of financial freedom is not okay. $700 is a fortune to people like me. What happens if someone signs up as a distributor and then is unable to recruit? They're just out $700 that could have been used to pay bills, buy food, medicine, gas for their car so they can go to work. How can you be okay with that? How can you be okay with the possibility of ruining someones life like that? How could I have thought that I could ask that of my friends and family?

    Has anyone seen the movie The Ring? In the movie, there is a cursed tape and whoever watches it dies in seven days. That is unless they can get someone else to watch the video before their seven days are up, and then that person has to find someone to watch the video, and then another, and another. It's an extreme example, but it fits.

    If you guys wanna help people by distributing your fancy pills and creams then do that. Learn about what's in Protandim, Canine Health, and Truescience cream. Educate yourselves on what their ingredients do and their benefits on the body. Sell your product but, be honest. Not all distributors are telling lies about Protandim. I took a Nutrition and a Body Mask class taught by the woman who took me to that Lifevantage meeting, and she knows her stuff. Before she took me to this meeting I trusted her that this product could be good for me because of her knowledge of the ingredients and what they do. I know she's honestly just trying to help me, and she believes becoming a distributor is a great opportunity. Not once did she make me feel like I absolutely had to do this or have a "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. I went to this woman's house though, and let me tell you, she has the means to be a distributor and bounce back if things go south. I don't. Most people don't. And I'm sure Protandim does help people and that's super cool but, it is overpriced for what it is. Lifevantage should focus on the product itself and it's benefits rather than marketing and packaging and whatever else jacks up the price. But either way, if you have faith in your product, sell your product. Just don't be a dick about it. The woman who tried to recruit me said "You have to learn to take no for an answer. Don't take it personally because it's not about you," and she's right. And if someone is interested in becoming a distributor, really ask yourself if you think they're cut out for it personally and financially. Don't prey on people down on their luck who are desperate for a way out because giving people false hope for your own gains is one of the most evil things you can do.
    -Amy

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    1. Amy,

      The thing is that there is something inherently and integrally creepy in the cult-like culture this MLM engenders and maintains. What legitimate product on Earth does this?

      Kimmer

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  80. Just experienced the Protandim "sell" at a neighbor's low-key event. (At least there was food!) The Presentation was done in a tag-team fashion by an earnest and seemingly down-to-earth woman who had a great combination of back-story attributes. The acolyte she brought with her did a credible job of playing the earnest beneficiary of the "trickle-down" benefits of the arrangement. They really had me going, to the point where I was quite willing to make a gesture toward supporting our neighbor's involvement by purchasing a month's supply of Protandin pills as a trial. Now it's past 3 in the morning, I'm awake wondering about the whole deal, and I find this excellent blog. Thank you. I feel like a perfect idiot, and deservedly so.

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    1. Edward,

      "Beating up Edward" sessions are not permitted here. This whole thing is a learning process and we all have our very own distinct learning curve. My first MLM encounters involved an insurance broker scheme and a video phone and in both cases I attended a job interview in the first case and a tupperware-like party headed by cheerleader-type. In both cases upon first encounter I never renewed contact with the parties in question. You'd only be dumb now if you went back to those people. I'm happy this blog column helped you in regards to this matter.

      Delete
  81. I've been invited to a Protandim meeting tomorrow night by a friend. It is to be held at her home--and when she called and invited me I could sense the pressure she is under to get some recruits to this meeting. I told her I would have to think about it because I absolutely despise MLM schemes(in my experience they always involve deceit and high pressure). Case in point: Several months ago I agreed to accompany a friend to a "health seminar". It turned out to be a MLM scam in which we were pressured to buy into an alkalizing product. The meeting began with about 5 people (all distributors) extolling the virtues of the product and testifying of its healing power. As luck would have it, I won a door prize--a bottle of the alkalizing tablets. When I got home and donned my reading glasses, I was able to see that the first constituent on the "proprietary alkalizing mineral blend" was Bicarbonate of Soda. Made me fuming mad to think people were paying $40.00 for a bottle with this MLM company when they could do just as well with a half tsp. of baking soda from their pantry.

    After researching and reviewing posts for and against Protandim, I have come to the common sense conclusion that if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. There is NO magic bullet or fountain of youth out there. If you have some aches, pains, or worse-- for heaven sake take a look at your pantry. Unload the chips, crackers, cookies, and sweets--put yourself on a diet of good quality whole foods. You really are what you eat. Taking the turmeric, Ashwaganda, and other 3 ingredients in Protandims blend may assist you--, but buy those ingredients yourself and save yourself some money. We sure don't need to be lining someone elses pocket to get ourselves on the road to wellness.

    Now that other posts have mentioned the "diahrea thing" I have to say that my friend (the one being pressured to invite me to a Protandim" meeting) had been bothered with diahrea too. She has also been very agitated and unable to handle any kind of stress the last couple of months.

    Obviously, I won't be attending tomorrow night's meeting.



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    1. Smart move, Emjay, and good for you for using critical thinking and logic to parse through the details of this and reach a rational conclusion and act upon it accordingly.

      Delete
  82. Thank you for posting this blog Kim. I was traveling from Las Vegas when I spoke with an interesting Proactive distributor. She caught my eye and interest, but forgot the power of the internet for promoting or dispelling her claims. Clearly she is now dispatched!

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    1. Anonymous #49,

      The internet can be a boon or a bane to our collective and individual knowledge. I posted a simple little blog blurb and look what comment thread it has engendered. The good of this endeavor has been the comments here and my words simply acted as a catalyst.

      Kimmer

      Delete
  83. Group #1:
    VCU, LSU, University of Colorado, HARVARD, American Heart Association and their publication "Circulation", Army, Navy, National Institutes of Health, BSCG, Health and Wellness Magazine, NBC, CBS, PBS, Wall Street Journal, ABC PRIMETIME, 5 US Patents... Oh yeah, and NASDAQ - All say the company is legit and great....

    Group #2:
    Interenet Blogger - Says it's a scam...

    So let me get this straight... Group #1 has actual medical credentials, science credentials, media credentials, investigation credentials, financial credentials and government credentials. Group #2 has interwebs credentials.


    Yeah, I'm going with Group #1 lol...

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  84. Dear Groupie of Imaginary Group #1,

    Your group does not exist other than in the propaganda of your product pimp and apparently your simple and trusting intellect has not deigned to question or research any of it but has bought into the myth hook, line, and sinker. The warning labels for your product tell us really all we need to know about it. Nice try though!

    Kimmer

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  85. So you're suggesting our company "pimped" themselves to be approved by the regulatory financial entities to make it onto NASDAQ too right? Wow, by that reasoning, all public corporations must be scams. That sucks...

    And also, if you would like, I'll send anyone here that would like them, the published medical studies conducted and FUNDED by the Universities I mentioned above and more. It's actually noted on the studies themselves who paid for them.

    Also genius, that "warning" label you're speaking about says exactly this, "This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease." Walk into any GNC and you wont find a single natural product that doesn't have that same label on it. Guess that makes GNC a scam too. Let the press and the NYSE know Kim. If a Distributor has made any such claims then they've violated their agreement by the company... not what we do sorry.

    Oh by the way, Kim, let the Major League Soccer association know that starting in December LifeVantage will be the main sponsor for the pro soccer team Real Salt Lake. That will make them sponsors in the company of other teams' sponsors such as DirecTV, Red Bull and Xbox 360. Those soccer pros wouldn't want to be caught with a scam on their jersies...

    Laughable...

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  86. Dear Anonymous #50,

    You are so confident of your product and the ethics of your company that you are "Anonymous" en lieu of using your name.

    That NASDAQ will carry you does not address the legitimate question as to the soundness and scientific-underpinnings of your product, merely the viability and lucrativeness of your business model. Given your emphasis on making money over actually helping people that is hardly a surprise.

    Given the popularity of your product in Mormon Country it is hardly a shock-a-roo that Real Salt Lake will plaster your name on their stadium for a boat-load of money from you as derived from manipulating people's greed and/or desperation. World Financial Group which admittedly is less shady than you even sponsored Pac Ten Football games for two years in the 2000's. BFD!

    "This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease" is plastered on everything in GNC? Yes, the place is not a medicine store but in a curious twist, your product isn't even there. In lieu of that you rather have your brain-washed lemmings spending more time and energy talking about making money and making more proselytes than they do actually taking the product themselves and actually trying to sell it themselves.

    Lastly, you basically ignore ALL the factual, rational, logical, empirical elements of my blog post because you actually don't have any legs to stand on. How does it feel to live a life that is not wholesome and legitimate and substantive? Here you are on my blog prostituting yourself as a corporate hack!

    ReplyDelete
  87. Name is Chance, LifeVantage Distributor, elementdesignceo@gmail.com

    It was in GNC. Your comment was about a "warning" label, and is something the FDA requires to be on every herbal product sold through any mainstream channel.

    Our annual sales from customers just using the product despite not being a Distributor is 80%. Funny how we have twice as many customers as we do distributors since we don't talk about our product, we're just concerned about being greedy scammers who want castles.

    Go look at our annual report. It's all there. I've helped tons of people, financialy and with the betterment of their health. Never had people indicate they feel scammed or wronged. Feels good to live the life I live. Thanks for asking.

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    1. "Chance" formerly Anonymous #50,

      First off, you still have not addressed the very basic and easily verifiable facts that I have presented in the original blog posting and for good reason since they cannot be disputed and they are rather terribly damning.

      Instead, you quite cynically attempt to get us all to follow you off to get lost in the weeds over tomfoolery like warning labels which delightfully ironic enough rather harms your own case since the smart people here already know that GNC's and such do not contain medicines but rather things that range from quite helpful when taken properly and preferably with a professional health care giver's guidance to utterly worthless or worse yet, harmful to some people.

      Your self-assessment of your company is greatly at odds with my own personal experience with your company which in my view makes you either blind or worse yet, a disingenuous liar!

      You live in an echo chamber of affirmation and reaffirmation of what you want to believe so it follows that you have not heard the sorts of complaints that fill the peanut gallery of this blog posting. I highly doubt you have taken the time to read through said peanut gallery yourself. I have read and responded to all them which necessitated a response.

      Reading your company's annual report is reading a report from its Ministry of Propaganda. For someone like you reading it is akin to mental/emotional masturbation.

      Of the three MLM's with which I've had contact, your's is the most like a cult with people whom I knew before they joined it becoming increasingly mindless drone-like with the passage of time and their deepening involvement.

      Delete
  88. lol Your well written theories are so cute! :D

    I guess if feeling great, working from home, and helping people do the same is a cult, baby I'M ALL IN! GL with your anti-MLM blog!

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  89. Dear Anonymous #51,

    Your smug, cold and heartless disregard for your fellow human beings as you exploit them from the comforts of your home is most definitely not cute. However, it is most certainly most revealing about the sorts of people who associate themselves with this product and its cult-like social order and promote it for their own selfish benefit all the while playing on other people's desperation and/or greed.

    Per usual as is usually the case with "Anonymous" postings by LifeVantage/Protandim hacks and whores here you hide behind the anonymity of the internet all the while utterly avoiding actually addressing any of the facts that are offered here either in the primary article or in any of the damning postings here in the Peanut Gallery.

    I'm not "anti-MLM", merely anti-scamming people, anti-exploiting people, anti-endangering people with false hope in a product that is not what it is advertised as.

    Bully for you in your nihilism and sociopathy.

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  90. american is my idol ever since! but now, it seems THEY ARE IDIOTS!!! (JUST ONLY SOME OF THEM!!!) GO TO PUBMED: TYPE PROTANDIM AND NRF2, OXIDATIVE STRESS, THEN BELIEVE! HERETICS!

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    1. Dear Anonymous #52,

      American may be your idol ever since whatever, but certainly for you English is not even a second language. In spite of the language barrier between us it appears the intellectual gulf between is even more significant. What useful ingredients Protandim does contain can be acquired just as safely if not more so and at a fraction of the cost of Protandim. The only idiots in this story are those who believe Protandim is a great thing and is somehow not a scam of some sort. FYI: in netiquette, typing in ALL CAPS is akin to screaming or yelling.

      Delete
  91. I've become more and more interested about Protandim because of the news report videos by credible source such as ABC Investigative reports. I have some serious health concerns in my family. Life or death health concerns. My son has brain cancer. My husband is a multiple relapse heroin addict, and I have suffered a brain subdural hematoma and herniated and bulging disks from a car accident in 2008. Oddly enough this formula seemed to touch on all of our concerns for healing. I've always been concerned about dementia or Alzheimers in the future because of the brain injury. And I've found people who have said that it helped them with heroin withdrawal and the craving to start using again. So I bought it for all of us. So far so good. I haven't gone as far as to sell it, but I am thankful for a long stretch of sobriety without cravings, the end of my son's migraines and depression, and the relief of my spine and back pain. I'll have to wait and see about the dementia and Alzheimers. I recommended it to a friend with Multiple Sclerosis and she is also impressed. So I don't see the problem. If laypeople like myself were selling it then I guess I would want and benefit from the Dr.'s training or else I'm not going to know how to talk about it scientifically. So that's my unbiased opinion as a guinea pig. It is a good product. I guess it's one of those don't knock it until you try it things.

    I'm glad to have your site to review along with the many others I've reviewed when I was doing my initial research about whether or not to try it in the first place. And I find myself from time to time considering selling it because of the benefit that so many could get. I mean, this is my son and my husband. I'm not even thinking about me yet. I wouldn't want to live without those guys. And to see them get well is a blessing beyond words. But I haven't made that choice to sell it. I'm just not at this point motivated to do so, although there's no way I'll stop being a customer.

    These trying experiences of grieving over chronic health issues in my family members' lives left me very bitter and spewing venom at times. I don't mean to offend you when I say that I hear a similar sort of hatred and ugliness in your words. I don't know what it is you're going through but I can tell that it is or has affected you greatly. And I pray that you are relieved of whatever burden it is and given peace in your life; so much so that it spills over in love and acceptance to everyone you encounter. And of course with plenty left over for you and your loved ones. God bless you.

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    1. The only anger I have demonstrated in this blog or in this peanut gallery thread attached to it is my unvarnished disdain for bullshit and double-talk and my unmitigated hatred for the practice of exploiting people's desperation and hopes. Of course, this means I really don't like Lifevantage and Protandim. I have quite clearly laid out in this space the case against them and their product. A great deal of additional information has been revealed here in the peanut gallery, as well.

      Your condescending and sanctimonious tone not only doesn't sit well with me but I bet most of the readers here could live without it as well.

      To be quite blunt you have triggered my bullshit alarm. Your "story" reeks of internet sockpuppetry. I won't tell you what the red flags are as I don't wish to help you get better at your trolling sockpuppetry. Needless to say, there are many logical and stylistic problems with your posting here.

      Even as a product hack or worse yet, company hack, you fail to address anything empirical I have said or that any of the contributors here have added.

      You are but the latest example of the sort of untermenschen that Lifevantage and Protandim seem to attract aside from the sweet, simple naive "useful idiots" that also seem to glom onto that company and its culture and its product line.

      Delete
  92. Im not in, could have been, my buddy who signed up when i didnt,(6maybe months ago) is now a "pro 7" in the " company" now makes 70 k a year for pretty much doing nothing , i didnt sign on cuz it just didnt feel right, its hard to sit back an watch his earnigs, its even harder to call him a buddy b/c i cant stand to be around him, protandim has consumed him, or should i say greed, the cult thing is so real if you think about it, why havent we seenit on Facebook, oh i no, cuz nobody would sign that way, we need a meeting at a house or somewhere in another state, the cool-aid tastes better if they drink it together, ex buddy is taking my brother with him, they cant stop, its like water running downhill, it wont stop though, their web gets bigger by the day, how can they stop , greed is so powerfull,

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    1. Anonymous #54,

      Your "buddy" is a drug dealer of questionable ethical/moral fiber. It's actually not hard to sit back and watch a drug dealer pimp a product that gives people false hope which in some cases influences their medical decisions in a foolish fashion, that by the very nature of the small print it is legally required to post readily admits it is an unproven medicine and gives people substances that can be readily acquired much cheaper than the cost of this product.

      And yes, those who get into this thing do indeed get consumed by its culture and creed of greed and blind devotion. It is an odd little cult built around a product and people's quest for belonging and for connection and Greater Meaning in this Post-Modern World. At least Apple's product cult follows a product that delivers what it promises.

      Delete